PODCAST TRANSCRIPTS

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover, and a host of a voiceovers or audio adventure podcast, a biweekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry. Share with you all the tips and tricks along the way.

    Like many people during the pandemic, I found myself out of work, I had a lot of time, and a little bit of savings. Voiceover had a weakness, something I'd been interested in, but had no idea of how to get started searching online with obviously the first step for me, but you've probably clocked about, there's so much information out there, it's actually quite overwhelming. Now, don't get me wrong. There were some great resources out there, but also some questionable ones. So today, two and a bit years into my voiceover journey. I want to share with you what has worked for me, and what I'm learning along the way. Let's dive in today's episode. So your friends, family members, or random people are telling you have a nice voice. If this is the case, you've probably heard people say, you've got a nice voice from radio or I can listen to you every day or I can wake up next to your voice. Alright, the last one was a little creepy, but you get the gist. Okay, so where do you go from here? That's where I found myself in the beginning of lockdown. The first thing you need is a demo. Here's my step by step what I did. I cheated a little bit on this stage, I worked in the music industry. So I had access to knowledge what people already. Nonetheless, I asked them what equipment I needed. And they were kind enough to help. At this stage, I had no coaching. And I decided to wing it and basically roll the dice. Once I had my setup, I went online and searched for scripts that I thought would work. I've recorded a script a couple times and downloaded music to accompany them. I sent all of this off to my friend who is an engineer. And he did the rest. Voila, I had my demo. Of course, me being me making things difficult. It's not a very conventional way of doing things. So let's say for some friends of mine and see how they got started in the industry.

    Dede 2:27

    Hi, my name is de de and I'm a voice over artist and a singer songwriter. I saw a tweet with a voiceover artists who was saying that basically, she was looking for more Black and Asian people to get into it wanted to try and diversify the industry. And so she was running a talk and they had some incredible voiceovers on the panel. And literally from then I was like, You know what, this is incredible. I think I'm going to try and get into it took me another like four or five months to sort myself out my first freelance job I got on Facebook.

    Michael Ashtiani 2:56

    Hey, I'm Michael, Michael Ashtiani. And I'm a full time voiceover in 2018, I was in a house fire. And I was nearly a goner, I made a very firm decision that even though it was in a bad spot, I was going to make that fire work to my advantage. I was like, I'm not going to let this be this negative thing that I always reflect on what I'm going to make this a positive thing. My way of doing that was like, I'm gonna use this as a springboard to try and do a complete career change and break into voiceover. And that's exactly what I did. When I decided to embark on this journey. There was no cutting corners, there was no you know, like, you know, I can do this, I can do that I literally, I accepted that I was a complete novice, no affiliation to the industry. I was a, I was a blank canvas that just wanted to learn. So coaching, online webinars, any courses I can get my hands on, you know, found like videos that had online courses online Udemy. This is a highly competitive industry, right? Everybody's vying for the same job, the way I saw it was, you're not going to stand the chance. You need to be armed, ready and dangerous when that script comes through that you're, you know, you're in a good position to win. And you're not going to do that unless you've put the time and effort in, you know, some people have God given talent and they can just, you know, rattle it off, but even the greats had coaching. I just think Yeah, I think I think just taking that approach of not rushing it, don't cut corners, take the time to hone in on your craft and just be as best as you possibly can. And it will give you the best foreign opportunity to succeed.

    Mariana Gant 4:20

    My name is Mariana Gant, and I'm a voiceover artist and actress based in London. You know, I don't really think there is a single path or conventional route to voiceover nowadays, I think, you know, all the voiceover artists I know every single one has a different story. Some went to drama school and they got involved in voice work that way. But there are others that I know who were teachers or lawyers or pilots and or they worked in marketing and then had a total career change. So once I had my first demo made, I pretty much went about putting it everywhere. And then I really just hit the Direct Marketing hard. I emailed video producers, gaming developers, casting directors, agents, pretty much anyone and everyone who I thought might need a voice over artist. And it was doing that, that I started to build relationships with people who are now my clients.

    AUDIO TRACK - 20 seconds of beginning of “Baby’s breath”

    Jo Troy 5:17

    Aside from the obvious different entry points, a lot of people got coaching to help them with their demos. Clearly, there's no right or wrong and what may work for you may not work for me, and vice versa. So let's talk with an expert. I was lucky enough to sit down and have a conversation with bitcoins. A good friend of mine, a multi award winning producer with Bauer Media Group, one of the biggest media groups in the world. I came across break on various platforms actually speaking about what he does, I found it really interesting. I reached out to LinkedIn. And a year or so later, we have worked on various projects together. And he's a pretty decent bloke. He was nice enough to answer some questions that I was dying to ask, and hopefully will help myself and you with your demo? How are you doing,

    Rick Loynes 6:07

    man? Well, thank you. Well, it's been a little while I saw you in person last time. Yeah, that was great. But yeah, all as well.

    Jo Troy 6:14

    Well, thank you for joining me today to talk about the word of demos. I'm trying to learn more and obviously want to educate others. So it means a lot. And thank you again, for joining me today,

    Rick Loynes 6:26

    and welcome.

    Jo Troy 6:27

    So what does your job entail? And what do you do on a day to day basis,

    Rick Loynes 6:31

    my job title is commercial producer. And I work for a company called Bell Media who own a big stash of radio stations in the UK, and has radio commercials mainly. So as a sound engineer, or commercial producer, what I do day to day is I'm part of a creative team. So we have we have people who sell airtime and creative. So we have sales people within those radio stations who are face to face with clients, they take a brief which they then pass on to our creative team. And we have a team of writers, creative writers and a team of producers who work with the clients and write scripts and write the copy, which then comes through to me and our team, the producers who take those scripts, we cast a voiceover,

    Jo Troy 7:17

    if someone was to send you that demo, what are the key tips you would give them?

    Rick Loynes 7:22

    Whenever I receive a demo? I don't want to be thinking too hard about what the content actually is. Your first two or three clips are really important. We psychologically build a very quick picture of someone what your voice sounds like, what what makes you, you, I'm looking for something kind of unique all the time, you know, and I think everybody's got it. It's just we all do have our own unique personalities and voices. And I'm looking for those that all moments of magic, really something that stands someone out from Why would I use you over another person, for instance?

    Jo Troy 7:58

    So would you would you kind of have the voice in your head already that you may be looking for already? Or is it something where you might hear a demo? And be like, Oh, I liked this voice. Let me store this for later.

    Rick Loynes 8:12

    It's both because when you hear something you're like, but you haven't really gotten a project on that or work for that, yes, store it away. At which point, when that thing comes up that you're looking for, you can go back through your bank of demos, invoices, and you can start to pick and choose there. There have been occasions where you were one of them, where I just heard something, and it was like, amazing. Well, you know, it really caught my attention straightaway. And it's it's really nice when happens.

    Jo Troy 8:43

    Thanks, Rick.

    Rick Loynes 8:45

    That's enough. Compliment.

    Jo Troy 8:49

    Okay, well, um, so obviously, there are people that are listening to this, wanting to know how to create a demo. But also people like myself who have demos, and maybe you know, wanting to know, ways to improve or, you know, just feedback in general. So, I want to put myself in the firing line. And I'm going to play you my demo. And yeah, we're just gonna, we're just going to talk about that, give some feedback and take it from there. But just to let you know, this is my demo that I still currently use to this day, so it's my first

    Jo Troy 9:28

    Be nice to me. See? Yeah, let's let's go to that. itching to go on a vacation, but don't have time to plan your getaway. We've solved that problem for you. And Venza visit WWW dot tollens flight club.com To take full advantage of our complimentary travel logs and destination guides. So it's one in the morning and you're starving. Nothing in the fridge and nothing in the cupboards. You think about cooking but when you remember the fire you started last time you tried using the stove well Check out step 11. They have between the world we see and the things we fear when they are opened, nightmares become reality. Every year during the month of March a family of racket gypsy was set up that tents near the village. With a great outdoor pipes and kettle drums they would display new inventions. You will need that special someone someone to make you love someone to listen. Someone to appreciate your cooking, but also to get you off the couch. So I want to be your best friend. A doctor a special someone today. RSPCA out now been eating the flower girls new album nada featuring hit singles run to sell a UK Top 40 I have available now on all streaming platforms. This summer China or new Mongolian land at noodle box and irresistible fusion of succulent lamb noodles and fresh veggies was tossed in a tasty Mongolia source for that purpose. What Chartbeat Do you know what's funny about that? Actually, I don't think I've listened to that from start to finish for God knows how long, which is really why I've listened to maybe the first free demos and then yeah, I've never needed to listen to it again, which is really weird. And

    Rick Loynes 11:30

    so before we get into it, how did you feel about that? Listen to it. Yeah,

    Jo Troy 11:33

    well, I know. You know, I've done a lot since then. And it's really interesting to hear how I have developed as a voiceover since then.

    Rick Loynes 11:45

    It's good. Sounds good. Yeah.

    Rick Loynes 11:46

    Yeah. What do you think? Um, what areas do you think could be improved? And what was your overall thoughts about

    Rick Loynes 11:51

    it? Yeah, I mean, so obviously, this was the first demo of yours. I heard. Yeah. And it was that first clip, I was in Nika, you know, there's just, there's something in your tone and your attitude that was just like this is, you know, there's something here that I've been missing on my roster for forever. Yeah, your first opening clip was a great choice. Because I think it I think it represents you and the voice, you can reproduce time and time again. And that is a tip is one of my main tips, I give two voices when they're producing a demo is your first clip, try and make sure it's something you can do day in, day out, you know, it don't go putting on anything, straightaway, that you're not going to be able to reproduce in back to back sessions all day, every day, because it's gonna make your life very difficult.

    Jo Troy 12:41

    I think I think I got lucky with that one. And it's, it's, it's interesting, because the majority of the work that I get now is along the same guidelines as that first demo, which at the time, you know, it was just a script to me, I didn't know what I was doing. I was just reading the script. And it's it just kind of manifested in its way. So I guess, listening back to it now, for the first time in a long time. Yeah, you can you can hear parts where you're like, Oh, I could change that. But you know, it's, it's just, I think there's that fear of change is something that's working in that demo, I think I used nine scripts. How many would you recommend?

    Rick Loynes 13:25

    From my point of view, it's a different answer based on what type of demo it is. Because a commercial demo, and the length of the clips you use, would be very different to say a corporate demo where you might want kind of more long form sentences, and generally slower. It's very dependent on the type of the demo, but also the audio that's in there and your type of voice. There's lots of factors. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. There's only a right and wrong, wrong answer based on your voice and the kind of work you do

    Jo Troy 13:56

    in the demo that you just heard. There's a mixture of niches because I like to call that demo a general demo, because at the time, it was the only one I had, so I just tried to throw everything in in one demo. Would you recommend that based

    Rick Loynes 14:15

    on the demo, we've just heard, you're quite versatile within a certain area. And, and the mistake a lot of people can make is trying to fit the universe into this tiny little ball. When actually if you if you just hone in on what you're good at. You realise that you've already got the universe in this tiny ball there the little bits of magic that will jump out at people. In terms of your demo. I think that the one of the main thoughts I had is the first few clips sounded quite similar to each other. Yes. And then towards the end we had like a really sincere read come in with lines and then the clip after that was like a music. Almost like promo clip. If I would have moved them, if it was me, I would move them forward. Because what they do straight away, and actually there's an argument for that to be said that it held my interest for longer being later in the real, but especially that sincere read. I wanted to hear that maybe second third, I wanted to hear that really far up because it was, as I said, it was some it was kind of your unique brand, but it was from a different angle.

    Jo Troy 15:29

    Well, thank you, thank you for your feedback

    Rick Loynes 15:32

    means a lot and trying to agenda.

    Jo Troy 15:35

    So I went on your website, and I saw that you have a Producer of the Year at the box awards three years in a row, do my homework. Um, so as a producer engineer, what do you think makes you stand out? Because a lot of people may not necessarily know exactly what it is you do and may just think you just put voices over instrumentals? Yeah, so what do you think makes you stand out?

    Rick Loynes 16:03

    I started in music production now. I've been a musician since I was really young and kind of wrote music produce music. So that's where I started. And that's how I kind of started to get in front of recording software. And, you know, generally kind of fell in love with sound, I think. And I've been on a funny old journey in my career, I've done a few things, you know, kind of with music, and I've kind of worked in animation for a few years. And I wasn't an animator, but I was producing projects. And they're very different things that kind of come together to kind of make me the way I am I suppose. So when I when I produce it's, I think that's just in my bones. I'm always thinking that way, like, what can make this snap? And what can kind of tug on the heartstrings or what can grab someone's attention?

    Jo troy 16:49

    And do you think that's why you got into voiceover as well.

    Rick Loynes 16:53

    Yeah, and that was more of an accident, really, that was years and years of kind of demoing and sessions with with voices and kind of seeping in through osmosis. From my seat as a producer, I really, really love voiceovers as an art form in itself, I just, I just love how much you can do with it. I love the different skills and talents. And all of that comes into it. Those things that people don't see and don't understand, you know, the mind technique and the breathing. Really great actor can just do something with a pretty average piece of copy. And it's just something else entirely that stuff. You know that I love it. I really love it. And I've never fallen out of love with it, as long as I've done this

    Jo Troy 17:39

    leading on from actually. So if somebody did want to, you know, create a new demo, they're looking for some engineer producer to, to work with, what would you say they should look out for in a engineer, producer, that kind of thing.

    Rick Loynes 17:56

    First of all, someone who's going to be honest with you, I'd be very wary of someone who would be willing to just kind of throw a demo together for you. And take your money. You want someone who is is is honest, and will be able to have a difficult conversation with you and say, No, this isn't good enough, or you're not even ready for a demo yet. You need to go and do more work. And work with a coach, if someone can tell you that, you know, you can trust them to eventually make the right demo for you. You know, I might be the right person for some people and not other people because I don't get their voice or I kind of don't get what they're going for. And that's totally fine. Just you've got to find the right partnership really.

    Jo Troy 18:38

    So for somebody that might necessarily not be able to maybe afford or doesn't have the resources and will can't get in contact with somebody. Would you recommend them doing it themselves?

    Rick Loynes 18:49

    Yeah, all I would say to that really start somewhere. And there's no shame in there's no shame in self producing, if if you know if you can't afford a demo, and, you know, if you can't afford to get coaching, but you really want to give this a go, you know, just starting somewhere like you're never going to be sorry, to upskill and learn how to produce and learn how to edit. And if you can do that you're you know, you can't have a more around package as a voiceover anyway. Yeah, I think I think a producer who's really cares about what they do, they'll listen through rough production. They'll listen through bad editing, for the voice that's there. And that might not mean you're like, ready for the big projects, it might just mean that you're on someone's radar. There's a really wonderful, unique thing about the voiceover industry in the UK, that I don't see in many other places where people who are in competition with each other, helping each other all the time. And it's it's just a lovely thing to see. And that in itself, I just think creates a really nurturing environment where people can come into this and feel more confident about what they're doing but not feel like they need to be like the other person.

    Jo Troy 20:07

    Have you noticed any new trends or any new things has been added to demos that you've been receiving? Lately,

    Rick Loynes 20:15

    I've been doing this particular job for 10,12 years, something like that. And I've seen trends come and go in that. And it's worth being mindful that they are just trends, and not trying to change the direction of your whole business based on them. Because you're just gonna get lost, you know, and I always tell people to kind of stick to what you are and what you do. But on that, I mean, I think it's the longest running trend we've had. For me, is this kind of sincere, genuine voice over thing that everyone's still asking for. It's kind of turning in on itself a bit, because we're getting pretend sincere and genuine rates. Yeah. And people can just see right through it.

    Jo Troy 20:58

    I remember when I first started, everything was make a conversation, or I was like, what is that? And I was trying my best to try to, to process what that was. And then I kind of gave him what I thought it was, and it happened to work. But yeah, conversation is different. For example, for everybody,

    Rick Loynes 21:17

    exactly. One of things I often come up against is a you get a script that says voiceover to be conversational, but they're going, you know, they're going, I just bought a carpet for 1499 a copyright and it's conversational, but I would never say that in real life. And that's the tricky thing for voiceover to try and get is to make ridiculously unrealistic copy sound genuine and believable. And that's hard. That's really hard.

    Jo Troy 21:46

    So, so if there are voiceovers out there, and they did want to work with you, they came across you on LinkedIn as I did. How, how did they get in contact with you? And is is there a formal or correct way to get in contact with you and potentially work with somebody like yourself?

    Rick Loynes 22:06

    Yeah, yeah. And I think you did the right thing. Actually, LinkedIn, for me is a really good one. It's how I do a lot of my work in finding good new voiceovers really, through my websites just wreck lines.com There's, there's a, you know, a contact sheet on there, which people do as well, I don't know if that'd be the answer for every producer out there. Some people might not want to be contacted at all. And you know, some people kind of take the point of view of I'll contact you if I want you. But I don't know how you're supposed to deal with that as a voiceovers trying to get themselves out there. So you want to be proactive, and I appreciate when people get in touch because it when I find good voiceovers, it makes my life much better. You know, it makes my life easier.

    Jo Troy 22:51

    Well, your wise words of helps me that they and I'm sure other people out there. So I'm just want to say thank you again for joining me today and answering my questions and give me constructive feedback. Oh, good. I want to try to sleep today.

    So what have I learned from today's conversations? hone in on your chips. If you're not lucky enough to be working with someone on your demo, you can get it out of you. Keep reading scripts until you feel confident enough to proceed. And remember, you can always get feedback from loved ones. Start with a demo with your strongest reader, something that you can recreate over and over again. And remember, there's no right or wrong way to create a demo. If you decide to work with a producer to create a demo. Make sure you do your research and make sure you have a relationship with that producer. You want to know that they have your best interests at heart, and they're pushing you to your fullest potential. Okay, looks like my time is up for this week. If you'd like to connect with me, you can find me at Joe troy.com. I'm on all the socials. So please say hi. We'd like to say thank you for everyone who's contributed to the episode. And a big thank you to Rick Loynes

    signing out. Until next episode

  • Jo 0:02

    Hello, my name is Jo Troy. I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of the voiceovers audio adventure podcast, a biweekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all of the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Jo 0:23

    What's the first thing that comes to mind when you think of freelance websites, for me is being my own boss. For a lot of us freelance sites stir up mixed emotions, or you might not know what they are. A freelance website is a site where you can earn money for providing a service. It could range from script writing, singing, marketing, or even bookkeeping. On today's adventure. I'll be talking to you about my experiences with freelance sites, exploring how to use them and how you can utilise them in your voiceover career. In the previous episode, I told you how I got my demo together. Once I had the demo, I was ready to go. At this point, I didn't have a website, mainly because I didn't have any jobs or experience. So I had to think about ways to get work. I have some understanding of freelancing websites because of people that are new that use them. So I decided I would start with freelancing sites. As I talked to a number of platforms such as pupil per hour, up work and Fiverr. My plan was to do a few jobs, get a few reviews and gain experience, there was nothing to lose. For me, it wasn't about money, it was about sharpening my skills. A lot of freelance sites may not earn you a lot of money to start off with, they give you the chance to dip your toe into the world of freelancing without coming out of pocket, I gradually increased my rates to mirror what the industry basic rates were, when I became more confident with the way I work and had some jobs under my belt, besides the over admin for you provide customer service. And most of free, here are some experiences of other for years better be used freelance websites are some who have chosen not to.

    Jane 2:07

    Hi, I'm Jane wing, and I have been a voiceover actor full time. For the last two years, I have been using freelancing websites since I started out initially, it was a great way to get paid work quickly. I kind of thought of it as almost paid rehearsals, when I was working quite cheaply to start with, it was a good way to build a portfolio and a great way to get experience and to start to learn how to interact with clients from all over the world and what their expectations would be. What made me want to join was the immediate access that you could get. So I was very particular having come from a background of radio, and TV and stuff, I was very particular about my sound. So I worked very hard to get my sound right before I launched myself on any websites. But then they were it was the immediate access. Whereas, you know, when you don't have an agent, when you're first starting out, you don't have access to some of the big auditions and the big jobs, how else you're going to build your portfolio. I think that there's a real negative attitude towards freelance sites in the voice over world. It really shocked me when I first started doing voiceover. A lot of the old school voiceover guys really, really don't like the what they perceive as the low rates of these freelancing sites, or specifically Fiverr. But I think that the negative view of Fiverr is getting very outdated. Now I've noticed even in the two years that I've been working views are starting to change the slope, people are slowly coming around to the idea that freelance sites, you can get paid proper industry rates on there, they can be a really good platform, they can be a great source of income, and regular income. I mean, I I'm not a top rated seller on Fiverr. My journey on that has been quite slow. And I know other people that have come on after me Shut up the ranks and earned a fortune. I haven't I've been a slow and steady burn. But I'm still really glad that I'm on there. And I still earn some good money. And I have some really nice jobs on there as well, actually.

    Tim 4:14

    Hi, my name is Tim. And I've been a voiceover coming up to 10 years now. My opinion on freelancing sites is that they are part of the markets. They bring a different type of client or a new type of client into the market that previously wasn't available, maybe using the old conventional methods and they are something that people have to take note of because they are part of the industry now and going forward. They always will be myself. Yes, I have I have used the freelancing sites before. And what made me want to join was because I saw of course, other voiceovers. were joining and some of them were getting clients and a decent amount of work from the website. So I thought it's something that I should also look into for my business. I the site I used was one called people per hour You know, I'm no longer on that site. The main reason why is because the way the site operates or wait, the way operated back then didn't really fit into the ethos of how I wanted to run my business. And I the rates. Also, predominantly, the rates weren't that great. And I found that I was getting better rates through my own direct marketing with clients as opposed to being on that site. So that's why I'm no longer on it. My first gig, it took me I think it was just over two months before I was able to secure my first gig on that website. Um, I'm not really sure I mean, different people have different opinions for different reasons. Some people might not use them, because maybe some freelancing sites for creatives might have a bad reputation in terms of, you know, whether it's the type of clients or the type of work that you get on there. Other people might be just based on the fact they've heard other people say these sites are no good. Or they might just decide that's not for them, really, but I guess everyone has their own reasons.

    Hannah 6:08

    Hi, my name is Hannah Gardiner, and I've been a voice over artist for just coming up to four years now. And for the last year and a half, I've been pretty much full time. So my main experience with freelance websites is just Fiverr. Really, I played around with up work and a couple of others when I was starting out, but didn't have the same success, didn't see didn't find it as as easy to use usability didn't didn't feel very intuitive, whereas I think five is really cracked up just in general as a freelance sort of website. So yeah, just Fiverr. So my opinion on freelancing website probably goes against the majority of those working in voiceover, just because I came into voiceover without the prejudice, I guess, against freelancing websites. And for me, it was how I really found my feet in, in the industry. So I started getting work through around 2019, from contacts that I'd had in my previous career in digital marketing. And I was finding it really hard to kind of get a lot of work through and still wasn't really feeling very confident in the work that I was doing. So I went on Fiverr, and had no idea how it worked or what the stigma was with it. But it's been fundamental for me in so many ways. So I'm a big fan of freelancing websites, specifically Fiverr. So yeah, I'm still an active user on Fiverr, and plan to keep being one. But if you'd asked me that, about a year and a half ago, I think my shame and guilt would have denied that I was ever using Fiverr. And also, my, my plan back then was to try and find a way just to not ever get any work from Fiverr, which was mainly because of the reaction I had to other people from other people in the industry kind of saying how bad it was, I was using it or whatever. But now, and especially within the last six months, I've worked on my profile to a point where I pretty much get my BNSF for most jobs. And bearing in mind, a lot of my work is corporate. So where I would lose out on Fiverr is on the commercial rights and, and things like that, I actually don't lose out that much. Because so much of it is internal work. And anyway, so but yeah, I am going to continue using it. And it seems mental to me that this, this shame and the stigma and this sort of like this image of myself as this terrible vo Banda and I didn't want to tell anyone where I was getting my work from and I felt like some sort of fake, you know, but actually now it's a huge part of my business and why I would ever turn that off, especially where it's just, you know, a part of my business. It's not where I get all my money from all of my work from no at all. But it's a big base, and it's helping me live independently or voiceover and without firearm without having built that. That base there. The experience. Yeah, like, I wouldn't be where I was. So I'm very grateful to it. And I think it was only this year when I went to the one voice conference this year. And I met quite a few other vos who are a bit more open about being on Fiverr are open about in you know, exploring Fiverr I kind of thought ah, yeah, okay, so it's not that bad. And it was this kind of, like relief that I felt but even even so, you know, I shouldn't have ever felt that now reflecting on it.

    Jo 9:46

    Personally, I thrived on Fiverr. I found that it worked best with my business model, which was to be a voice over artist and booth my client base and skills up in my own time. I've grown within the platform and have been able to contribute to come Conversations. A big win for me is that I'm now considered a top rated seller, which is someone who has hit specific milestones in earnings and performances. My approach to fibre works the same as a client emailing them and asking for a quote. The only difference is that it's on a different platforms. I kinda look at Fiverr as an agent, I have some questions. So I reached out to some infrastructure team lead the community and social impact. And Adam fine head of music and audio at Fiverr. To ask, the best way to stand out or freelance sites, how to grow your business, and why freelance sites can be viewed as negative, and more. Thank you for joining me on the podcast today, would you like to introduce yourself and let the people know what it is that you do at Fiverr?

    Sam 10:52

    Show thing, my name is Sam sorcerer, and I am the team lead for Community and Social Impact provider based in New York City. And what I do on the social impact side is I help realise fibres purpose of helping anyone around the world to build their business, their brand and their dreams. And we do this by increasing access and opportunity to both sides of our marketplace to both our freelancers and our customers through different kinds of programming. And then once someone is brought into the future of work and into fibres, community, by way of our social impact programming, or of any other kinds of programming that we have, we facilitate connections amongst our community of freelancers and customers together to help them learn, share and grow. So that's yeah, that's how I do it. Fiverr. And I love it.

    Adam 11:37

    Awesome. Yeah, that was a good, good, concise intro. Hopefully, I nailed that also. My name is Adam, fine, I'm head of music and audio here at Fibre might not be the clearest. What that means basically, the way I like to put it is I made sure that, you know, Fiverr works in the world of music and audio, of course, we have tonnes of services across eight different verticals. But how you buy a singer is super different than how you buy a programmer to build your website. So it's really important to make sure that that experience flows, that we have amazing talent, high quality talent in the world of music and audio, that we have the right messaging to artists and businesses that are coming to find voiceovers producers, anything you can think of. And of course, to have a good product experience so that once you come to Fiverr, you're browsing and searching for a freelancer for voiceover artists, in a way that makes sense and is intuitive and really helps them find the match. So that's that's a bit about what I

    Jo 12:41

    didn't show you guys. So that was great. That was that was pretty good. That was pretty good. I couldn't do better myself. So yeah, that's that's a great stuff.

    Jo 12:52

    How would you describe Fiverr to someone who's not used it before or heard about it?

    Adam 12:59

    Yeah, I would say Fiverr is an online marketplace, global online marketplace around the world where you can either sell services, or you can find services to buy. It's almost like the digital services of Amazon. So anything that you want to buy digitally received digitally, you can find it on Fiverr, whether it be voiceover, whether it be graphic design, it could literally be someone singing You Happy Birthday, or creating poems for your loved one. You can find it on Fiverr digitally around the world.

    Sam 13:31

    Yeah, just just to echo off that it's difficult to think about something that isn't available or possible to get done on Fiverr. We've seen a breadth of projects and businesses that have all started up, thanks to amazing freelancers that they found on Fiverr. So it's, it's a pretty magical platform. And it's been exciting to to be a part of it

    Jo 13:53

    as a voiceover on Fiverr. I would like to know and obviously, the listeners would like to know how many roughly voiceovers would you say are commonly on the platform?

    Adam 14:03

    Yeah, it's a good question. That there isn't a one figure that's easy to say, because how we track things are, are different across different areas. But There's well over 10,000 voice artists from from across the world, offering over 60 different languages we have now, if you look at accents, even more than that, so really, it's a wide variety. You can find talented voice artists that at any, you know, experience level at any niche or different areas of specificity that they are experts in so it's we're lucky to you know, I think we have a voice artists that can can fit any business's needs. Obviously,

    Jo 14:50

    that sounds like a, you know, such a lot of people doing voiceovers. Specifically, how can someone stand out above the crowd too? To get work in such a big pool, yes,

    Adam 15:01

    this is a great question and one that can can span the rest of our conversation Fisher, there's, there's a lot. So you know, if I say something that you want to dive into a little deeper, feel free. But I'd say there's a few things you can do. And a lot of that is replicating what you do in in real life or off of Fiverr. First thing that stands out is really be professional, showcase your experience, I think a lot of voice artists are coming to Fiverr with some experience and with some interesting clients under their belt interesting projects. And that's first and foremost, that, really, it's important to put out all the information out there because, you know, we don't link to your website, or you can't take people to YouTube or different places. So it's really important to put as much information in your gig and your bio, in your gallery. So as as many things as possible to both give us five or an idea of your experience and what you've done and of course, give customers and businesses as they're scrolling through just a bit more information about you. I'd say another thing is, is basically embracing your niche. Like I said, we were lucky to have 1000s of voice artists that that consider fibre home and a key source of business for them. And because of that, there's a lot of different, I'd say a lot of different bases already covered. So I wouldn't be scared to really embrace if you do just, you know, YouTube explainers, you have this super good casual style, I wouldn't be afraid to embrace that and really double down on it. Because there's, you know, there's a need for every type of voice out there. And so really be yourself and make sure you embrace that view.

    Sam 16:53

    And I would double down on the communication of your profile, your service does speak for itself, which is the beauty of online marketplaces. But the more that you communicate, whether it be you know, static on your profile in your About Me section and your work ethic and who you are as a human, humanising your profile, and talking about the skills and services that you have, but also your communication with clients and customers throughout the process of doing a project with them, is something that could really set you apart. And then once you have a positive relationship with a customer, they leave a review, once you gain those reviews and ratings, you have a reputation on Fiverr, that is only going to do positive things for you. So the communication is is really huge on Fiverr, and any other marketplace that you're selling services on. And the other thing is community, the community side of things, you know, your service speaks for itself. But you know, when you connect with others, and you're learning about industry trends, and you're hearing best practices from other voiceover artists from around the world, and especially also locally, then you're much more likely to get ahead and stay ahead. And so the community aspect within Fiverr is also huge amongst voiceover artists. And I'm sure we'll get there, but I thought that was so important to the question of, you know, what can set you apart is actually making those connections amongst other freelancers on Fiverr

    Jo 18:14

    Yeah, definitely, definitely. Because I, myself as a vo for I've used opera services and through those connections, you know, we've ended up working together our later points down the line and yes, kind of the community grows and with that your business grows. So yeah, it's a good good point. Um, so what what kind of customers would you say use the platform will order from the platform? Yeah,

    Adam 18:35

    it's crazy, the wide variety of clients and businesses that come to Fiverr it can be anything from, you know, a company that just released their first product and need a explainer video to we have McDonald's, Facebook, Uber, Google, really any big company that you can think of there, they're coming to Fiverr and getting voice work for for their projects. So it's a variety, I'd say, most common, not surprisingly, is somewhere in the middle, where it's businesses that are, are getting content, slightly more consistently video content, or are diving deep into the new world of kinda building out their audio strategy. So a lot of companies are increasingly getting involved in podcasts. So I'd say the average customer is going to small to medium business but we've we've seen plenty of these big companies come on the platform and and work with voice artists

    Jo 19:31

    when I first started on the site. Yeah, I had no idea that bigger companies were using it like when I first started I thought, Okay, I'm gonna get some, you know, some orders from the guy next door wanting something for his daughter or stuff like that. And I knew there was some smaller businesses but yeah, definitely as you grow your business, you definitely get the you know, the bigger fish so to speak, I'm contacting you which is very surprising, but at the same time you feel like you worked so hard to get to a certain point that you should be, you know, entertaining these kinds of clients. So, yeah, it's, it's definitely eye opening what you can achieve on your platform, I would definitely say that that's the

    Adam 20:13

    exciting thing about offering your services on Fiverr, you can set up your gig, you know, you don't know who who might bite, you might get the the guy next door just just launched the company. But we know that there are these these big companies with big budgets, increasingly coming to us to, to look for voice artists. So it's a very little risk and kind of getting your foot in the door and building up that profile.

    Sam 20:38

    And once you have, you know, you know, completed a project for a larger company, you can add that to your profile to let others know that, you know, that's the calibre that you're at. And these are the kinds of clients that you that you work with. And you know, looking at your profile, Joe, I know that you've also done that, which is so exciting. Yeah, and it's great to be able to communicate that on your profile and, and also freelancers like to work with all different kinds of clients and have that range of business size or type of industry, or just type of voiceover work that they're working in and communicating those things on your profile is only going to attract more clients for you going forward.

    Jo 21:17

    Okay, so I have a question, the big question. So freelancing sites such as Fiverr, obviously, and there's loads of Freelancer sites out there. But obviously, you can only speak one fibres behalf, why do you think that they get such a bad rap with specific industries now, voice in the voiceover community, when I started Firefall, was how I got started, is how I made this my job. And from now I've developed my business, I still use Fiverr, obviously to this day, but I've diversified. Now, in my early stages. A lot of people that I was ever getting coaching were for my peers were saying, you know, XYZ about Firefly, and they wouldn't use it for this reason and other freelance sites. So where did that opinion come from? And how do you think it can be changed? Yeah,

    Adam 22:10

    this is a, this is a discussion I've had many times. And it's something that I am passionate about changing. And I think it's really a misconception, because, as we've discussed, and actually, as you just mentioned, there, I'll get to something in a sec, it's it's not too accurate, kind of the picture that's painted in the voiceover industry. And I think there's some things that, that really benefit the voice over industry. But I think you you mentioned the key thing there, which is, as you started, you came to Fiverr helped you build up experience, and something we've really valued, you know, since since the company was founded long, long before my time here is offering this flexibility. And we have voiceover artists that are coming with 20 years of experience with companies like BMW under their belt, in great we we offer them a platform to charge however much they want to bring that experience and attract a certain type of clientele. But we also, you know, we offer a platform for beginners to you know, maybe they just got their, their Shure SM 57. And maybe they took a audio production course and are looking to get into it. And some amazing careers have been built off those humble beginnings, I think, you know, if I'm getting your story, right, maybe yours is one of them. And so I think, really, we we offer that flexibility for voice artists to, to kind of charge as they see fit to do business as they see fit, and really help connect them to businesses around the world that are looking for their services. And so there are, you know, we have this flexible pricing, and kind of scaled pricing for any type of project. And because of that, I think we've we've gotten a reputation in the voiceover industry that is viewed as a little bit cheaper. But again, I think it's key to key to frame that in the sense that we have a wide variety of experience on the platform wide variety of projects. So it's it's a notion that I challenge and I think is is changing slowly. But at the end of the day, what what we want to focus on is making sure sorry about that. We want to focus that voice artists coming to Fiverr are are making making money. We're bringing the right buyers to them. And at the end of the day, that's that's kind of what we can do in our control. And I think the industry will slowly adapt and we've seen some old players in the space kind of embrace the fibre model and the magic of of, you know, being able to hire someone on demand, which is which is magical moment. We've seen more companies In the voice over space embrace that. And yeah, I think that notion is, is changing slowly.

    Sam 25:06

    Yeah, it's a, it's definitely, you know, a polarising topic. And, and as I mentioned, it's talked about a lot, it's not gone gone unnoticed, or, you know, it's something that we care about a lot is to make sure our voiceover artists feel that, you know, it's not only an equitable experience on the platform, but that, you know, they're selling their services for the quality and the hard work they put into, you know, refining this really incredible skill. And the other side of that is on the social impact side is that we are democratising access to be able to sell your service around the world, which naturally increases, you know, the supply on any marketplace, which is, you know, always going to be a little bit of a challenge, but it's something that Fiverr also cares about is making sure that Fiverr as a marketplace is accessible to as Adam mentioned, someone who has honed in is quite experienced as someone who is just starting out so they can get to where you are now, Joe. And so that's, that's equally as important to us. And we've also seen so many people rise and become successful like yourself, and like so many other voiceover artists that I'm connected to on a on a day to day basis. But definitely something that's that's on our mind, and we're trying to change.

    Jo 26:26

    And I know recently there's been, to my knowledge, I think there's a couple coming up in the UK anyway, community group gatherings, could you explain more about these community gatherings and what they are and how many more will be coming up in the future?

    Sam 26:42

    Yeah, it's, it's the part of my job that it just makes me it makes me smile from the inside out. Because the community of Fiverr is really led by the community itself. So people raise their hands, and they say, I'm really interested in connecting with others. And it could be based on anything related to their skill, their motivation, it could be based around their identity as a person, whether that be you know, that this is what they sell on Fiverr, or where they live, or something that they believe in to be true to themselves. And in the past, we've hosted, you know, even just general community gatherings in the UK, whether it be based in Manchester or London, and then there are also communities around voiceover, whether it be the voiceover community, in the UK, or in the US, and even more niche than that we see moms of Fiverr, who are in the voiceover community connecting so we can get super niche. And we see people connecting, you know, more technical related conversations, what equipment they use, what feels right to their, to their, to their, you know, recording booth, you know, how all the way to like, kind of the emotional side of it, which is if you're having a rough day, if you're having a stressful day, how do you unplug? And how do you actually tap into, you know, the the project that you're working on? Or how do you lean into that to tap into the project that you're that you're working on? Even all the way to like the the everyday life cycle of being a voiceover artists and fibre, which is how do you structure your day? How do you, you know, make sure that your family doesn't disturb you, when you're in the recording booth? Do you get a red light to turn on? Do you one of the most quiet times in the home? Like what are those best practices, and we see these kinds of conversations come up all the time within these community events. So that's kind of the structure of them is really informal conversations. We also have workshops, and we have webinars for people presenting to the community, so less facilitating, and more learning, and then question and answer. And as far as current events and future events, you know, we are open all the time to be hosting events. And in the future, we hope to be hosting many more they happen to be some of our most well attended. And most desired events are our voiceover community that

    Adam 28:59

    the voiceover community shows out every time. It's

    Unknown Speaker 29:02

    It's really impressive. And I think it's just a commitment to people wanting to do better, and to sell quality services on Fiverr. And anywhere else that they serve, you know, fibre believes and are freelancers. And we also understand that they don't just freelance on fibre, they freelance and other market places as well. Fiverr happens to be an incredible marketplace where you can sell your services. And I think that's one of the beauties of the community is that people come from all walks of life and they sell their services on fibre. And by way of connecting with each other, they're able to learn, share and grow to support their services and fibre in them as human beings and individuals and we know that and we embrace it and we love it. And we encourage it. So yeah, we hope to have many more, you know, events and gatherings and workshops on the calendar soon.

    Unknown Speaker 29:50

    Totally. I'll say I'll just add to that. It's It's It's awesome to foster some of these relationships and community events and I think when One thing that I've heard from a bunch of voice artists and and other people in other professions, but spoken to a lot of voice artists that a lot of voices recording at home, you know, don't have coworkers it's it's just the reality of their profession. And so there's been times when we Amen, it's, it's a reality. So there's been times when we put voice artists in in one virtual room or physical room. And as Sam was mentioning, just a lot of these topics come up, whether it's the equipment or just simply the scheduling of their day, all these interesting things that they don't necessarily and to talk about every day, without people that are doing exactly what they're doing. So Fiverr is is the homepage for 10s of 1000s of music and audio professionals. And as Sam was mentioning, we hope to continue to give give these people resources and in support if we can.

    Jo Troy 30:56

    You've kind of answered this in the last question. But if somebody's listening out there, and they want to join Firefall weapons for vo war in the audio space, where is the best place to find resources and get started?

    Adam 31:12

    Yeah, I think there's you know, there's a few places that come to mind. First of all, super easy to get started and get going just when it comes to the the logistics of it, you know, click in the top right corner, start selling, you'll get to a seller dashboard, you'll go through a simple kind of simple process of filling out some of your information and uploading media uploading past clients. So from a logistics standpoint, it's it's super easy. But from a educational standpoint and support standpoint, I think the easiest place to get started is is our forum, we have a music and audio specific section. And a lot of questions that you might have as a new seller, have probably been asked there. But if they haven't, feel free to chime in and send something there. And I think some of these community events that Sam is organising are an awesome place to both get information, but then also learn from others and really see what others have done to succeed. Because it might seem daunting, your first your first week, or you might not get an order for a month. But many people have been in that that situation and have come out come out on top for sure.

    Sam 32:28

    Absolutely there, you know, we can link this to Joe but event stuff fiverr.com You know signing up for events right away to connect with others, the forum, as I mentioned, and then there's also a I think it's less than an hour Fiverr Learn course, it's free for the public, for anyone that just wants or wants to create a profile on Fiverr to self service. It is a detailed walkthrough of how to sign up for Fiverr how to create a profile and some best practices throughout the way, I would definitely recommend that anyone who's just starting out, go through that recording and watch it and just keep it next to them for the first couple of days weeks as they're going through their profile and, and learning and trying and optimising their profile.

    Jo 33:13

    Oh, Adam and Sam, you've been amazing. Thank you for your time, pleasure to speak with you both and, you know, make this happen. So thank you again.

    Adam 33:22

    And that's been a pleasure.

    Sam 33:26

    Thank you so much, Joe. It's been an absolute pleasure and we hope to connect soon.

    Jo 33:31

    So what did I learn from today's conversation? All freelancers can appear flooded with competition, and make you feel like a needle in the haystack. So go for it. Don't try to be anybody else but yourself and showcase what makes you you. Communication is key before, during and after projects, and can affect your reviews which has a knock on effect on with the growth of your business and clients wanted to use your services in future freelance platforms such as Firefox, built with entry level jobs. So it's a great place to start. But also, if you want to create a great client base, it's a great place to network and level up. We didn't talk about this, but from personal experience, make sure you have the time to join the freelance sites in general. Although you can decide how quickly your turnaround times can be. The sweet spot is two to three days at most. VoiceOver is a world full of fast turnarounds. So be on standby at all the times otherwise, you might not get the work. Thank you so much for Sasha and Adam fine for taking time out to chat with me. But wonderful voice surface has shared their free life stories and you are listening. As always, I put everyone's links in the show notes as well as the link to sign up for upcoming fibre events. Looks like my time is up but another week, signing out. Until next episode

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover sports your adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and auto industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way. Money, even if you do business a passion, in order to make this a job, at some point, you're going to need to make some, but how much should one charge? And how do you calculate this? Today's adventure is about rates and usage. I had no idea how much to charge when I first started, let alone you could get paid and even make this a job. I started on freelance sites such as fibre, so my entry point regarding rates was very skewed. Not only did I have to adjust my basic studio rate by how to calculate how much this mysterious fin could usage would be and what it even was, as I spent more time speaking with other voiceovers and doing more research, I came across voiceover sites such as gravy for the brain, and use feed.tv, who provide amazing tools and resources to help calculate usage fees for different kinds of media. Okay, enough about me. Let's see what other VoiceOver is did.

    Tiffany 1:36

    Hello, I'm

    Tiffany 1:43

    Tiffany, Claire, and I'm a British voiceover artist. So for my first job, but going back a little while now, but I actually don't think I charged I don't think I had the skills or kind of self belief to think that my my product was good enough to pay for or to charge for. So I definitely did a lot of free work at the beginning. And then from then I found a lot of comfort in pay to play sites because often they give you the budget, that gave me a slight kind of guideline of what I could charge or what that job would be worth. So that's how I started out with my charging. So where to go for rates I've always struggled with, I definitely use gravy for the brain rate card, I do find that very helpful. And a few other sites have got some guidelines, but everywhere is very explicit that they are just guidelines, and you're free to charge what you want. So I would say I definitely do not understand rates. It's not my strong point. And it's also something I find quite difficult to talk to with people as well. Because you know, it's quite a private issue. So you don't want to always say to people, well, what do you earn? Or what do you expect to earn, but I know it's something I need to grow in. And I need to understand more. So I'm very excited to listen to the rest of this podcast and bring my notebook with me, I'd say my biggest hurdle, when quoting clients is definitely my self belief. Kind of trusting that my product and my time is worth what I'm quoting. And not under selling myself.

    Tim 3:17

    Hi, I'm Tim Lee. And I've been working in voiceover for around three years.

    Tim 3:24

    My first job

    Tim 3:27

    I think from what I remember, it was a corporate for a friend who had a web design business, and I think it was 180 pounds. Actually had to, well the promise of another video. So yeah, 180 pounds per narration. So in terms of what to charge, which was a minefield at the time. Obviously my coach at the time, Nick, from notable voices, net clench, he would help me out, he pointed me to the the gravy for the Brynn read calculator. And of course, we've got a wealth of VR experience, haven't we in the community, so often still do would ask on Instagram, or Facebook, Facebook, British voiceovers, just post it on there. Lots of experienced videos out there able to help. So the biggest hurdle or stumbling block Well, it's probably one we all have to address, particularly with a new client, and that's probably usage. It's just getting the client to understand, you know that usage of the voice is not is not forever. And you do get clients that that might say look, we prefer a one off fee. And that's that's down to each and every voice over artist isn't it to decide on that to negotiate. But definitely usage is a challenge.

    Amy 4:56

    I'm Amy file Sleeth and I've been a VO for a little under a year, for my first vo job, which was quite a small number, I charged about 30 odd pounds for it in terms of whom I spoke with to know more about what to charge, a combination really of referring to the voice over rate guide on the gravy for the brain website and the equity website. And as well as checking with my coach and mentor who's really experienced and knowledgeable, and always there to answer any questions I might have. Do I understand rates? To some extent, yes, based on the information that's out there. However, I still feel it's a bit of a minefield. So I'm learning as I go and crossing bridges as I come to them. Certainly some grey areas in relation to rate so always worth informing and educating myself along the way.

    Jo Troy 5:54

    It sounds as though everyone is aware of the resources out there, such as gravy for the brain rate card, and utilising the boss knowledge of the videos. That being said, there seems to be a shared uncertainty about what to charge and educating the client on what they should pay and why I wanted to find out more and speak with an expert in this field. So I reached out to Marcus Houghton, the Vice Chair of the audio committee at equity, which is the British performance. Well, yeah, nice to finally hear your voice.

    Marcus 6:27

    Yeah. Nice to finally talk to you anyway. Yeah. How are you doing?

    Jo Troy 6:31

    I'm good. I'm good. How about yourself?

    Marcus 6:33

    Yeah, no, good. Yeah, I've just been away. I was in Amsterdam, and got back yesterday. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, what was a bunch of voiceovers? So, which was nice. So it was yeah, it was a kind of a bunch of as I got an agent in Amsterdam, and they the party went to that was nice.

    Jo Troy 6:52

    So please introduce yourself to the listeners.

    Marcus 6:56

    Yeah, well look quick about me. I mean, basically, I've been an actor for 40 years, nearly a voice artists for 25. I've been vice chair of the equity audio committee, and have been on the audio committee for the last seven years. And I was on it before that in the early 2000s. So I'm quite well versed in equity. You know, what equity does for members basically?

    Jo Troy 7:21

    Yeah, because I yeah, I was on the, on the lookout to speak to someone like yourself, um, you know, usage and basic Jovi's and stuff like that. It's kind of like a grey area. Obviously, there's a lot of loss of resources out there.

    Marcus 7:40

    But it is a grey area. It's a grey area all round.

    Jo Troy 7:44

    Yeah, I just had had a few questions and tried to better understand them, only for myself, but for others. So yeah, I'll start from the top. Okay. Okay. Could you explain what's usage in the voiceover world is

    Marcus 7:58

    usage, okay? Well,

    Marcus 8:01

    use usage is the exploitation of your performance. So voiceover fees are generally split into two parts. One is the is what's called the basic studio fee, or the other BSF. And that's a fee for your time, and your studio time. And people's BFFs are personal to them and vary, but you know, sort of 250 pounds an hour to 303 150 pounds an hour is the standard face. And that's the fee for you to show up, record your work, you know, off your studio up for free if you're working from home. And then the usage part is the exploitation of your performance. And a lot of clients don't understand that they think, Well, I've paid you the money to record it. So why can't you just give it to me? And, you know, I can use it for as long as I like. Because your voice is your tool and your association with a product or service is your voice in association with that can very often preclude you from getting work in other areas. So if you, for instance, do I don't know, let's say Peugeot cars, and you do a national TV campaign for Porsche cars, then for the duration of that campaign, there isn't another car manufacturer that's going to want to employ you. You're not gonna you're not gonna be able to do Citroen or Renault or Ford or anything else during that time. So for the duration of that one now, that isn't always the case. But but that is part of what usage is for it's to ensure that a bit like you know, a best selling book or something like that, that the exploitation of your work is compensated for a duration and that can be for a territory, it can just be for the UK or it can be for the Europe or if it can be worldwide. It can be for it can be for a period of time, three months, six months, 12 months, two years. So we always say to people who are new to voiceovers and members be very careful about what you agree to. And what you're granting is a licence to use your recording to lose the recording of your voice for a period of time. And what you're agreeing for is is an exploitation fee for that usage. And so obviously, you know, if very few people are going to hear it, then the feeble the exploitation fee will use this fee will be tiny. If millions and millions and millions of people are going to hear it all over the world, and they and for a long time, then the exploitation fee, the usage fee goes up accordingly. So that's the reason why it's there. Okay. And that's complicated that different sectors have has different different amounts, you know,

    of course, and who creates them. Okay, so, right? Well,

    some of it is rooted in historical practice, which does actually stand up in court, by the way, but different sectors have different methodologies now, equity negotiates where it can with employers. So we have what's called collective bargaining agreements. So we sit down with an employment with an employer, and we'll say, these are the minimum rates and conditions that are acceptable for our members to record for. Now in voice over, there aren't a lot of those because I mean, there are four there are four sort of BBC and ITV there are four, you know, the rub, there are some things in elearning, there are some, there are some collective agreements in place with employers, we're trying very much hard at the moment as a committee to get more collective bargaining agreements in place we have them with, for radio commercials for local radio commercials. So anything on the sort of, you know, global, or Bauer networks, we we have negotiated agreements with those two groups, they own most of the radio stations in the UK, we have collective agreements with the BBC. Yeah. But we don't have a collective agreement for television commercials at the moment we did for many years. And then there was a strike in 1998, which killed that agreement off now, as it happens, most members work well, because, you know, there was there was a sort of standoff between the union and the and the Institute of practitioner advertising, which which, which is healing, I have to say, you know, but it's taken 2024 years to kind of get back to the table to talking, but the standard fees that people are paid for TV commercials are based on that old agreement. So agents, and advertising agencies pretty much agreed to stick to that agreement, even though it doesn't exist. So you've got agents to thank for a lot of our agents, our agents, are have been the people that have set the rates because they've been able to control access to their clients, particularly their celebrity and name clients. Yeah. But obviously, since, you know, since the home studios big have become popular, everything's gone out the window a bit. And if you're starting out as a voiceover, you just think, well, I'll buy a mic. And I'll, you know, do a bit of online training and whatever. Where do I even start with this stuff? It's very, very difficult to know. And there are forums, there are, you know, a lot of most voices I know, people who, you know, will ask around these questions are from the same questions get repeated again, and again, and again, how much should I charge for bla bla bla bla bla bla bla blah, and it is a bit of a fine art, you know, it takes years to get to know, sort of what to charge and what the going rates are. It's very different. I mean, as a union, we can talk to employers, but in fact, it is illegal to fix rates. So you can only really suggest rates and there are organisations like grateful for the brain that have a suggested rate card that people look at as a kind of guide. And that's based on sort of industry practice. So the information is out there, but it is a bit of a fine art. It's a bit like saying, you know, it's like it's like any sector.

    Jo Troy 14:08

    So it's actually illegal to set fixed rates, like you said,

    Marcus 14:12

    it's illegal to fix rates unless they're done. It's done by union in agreement. Okay. With an employer, as a union, we can't set rates. Okay, this is something a lot of people don't understand. They think we were the union, you should just set the rates. We can't do that. That's, that's against the law, a trade union. I am Vice Chair of the audio committee, just to sort of clear that up within equity, which is the British performance union. All we can do is collectively bargain. That means that we can sit across a table, you know, we can sit down at a table with an employer and both parties will agree on what the minimum rate should be. And I have to stress minimum because people go well, some of the equity rates are much lower than what what, you know what people get, and you get Yeah, but they're minimum rates, there's a reason that they're a minimum, you're perfect liberty to charge more than the minimum rate. It's just that it's a minimum rate, just, you know, it's a kind of safety net to say, look, it doesn't go below this point. But anything over that point you can, you can certainly negotiate. In reality, the minimum rate is often the rate. But I must stress the word minimum, if you're looking at any equity rate, guys, but yes, it is illegal for equities set rates without having negotiated with them, negotiated them with an employer,

    Jo Troy 15:32

    and how often are they changed or revised? And what's the process? To do this, to amend them?

    Marcus 15:39

    Once we have an agreement in place, then the rule of thumb is that it's revised annually. I mean, a union will or, you know, that doesn't always happen. But a union will always be looking for an RPI increase now, obviously, this year, because interest rates have been insane, up around 10%. It's harder to go to an employer and ask for a 10% rise on rates. And it has been in the years when it's been two or 3%. But we are having to ask those questions from employers, we're having to say, look, this is the RPi increase, you know, this is what we'd like to see. So there's quite a lot of hardball and going on in negotiations across the whole sector that's in theatre, and film and TV and everything else. But, you know, as we've seen, you know, we've seen a flurry of strikes and things in the last year from lots of unions and organisations and, you know, that hasn't happened for years. And that's just because we've got high inflation, but But yes, the these things are discussed, once the aim is to is to revise and review once a year, once we have an agreement in place, but as I said, the voice over sector is notoriously like the Wild West. And it's very difficult, because there are so many different employers out there. I mean, one of the things a union can do, if obviously, we're talking to the BBC, that's great, but you can't talk to, uh, you know, 20,000 small businesses who produced the voiceover and get them all to agree to the same rate.

    Jo Troy 17:01

    And that's, that's what the issue is, is a lot of the smaller companies that you work with probably, you know, 70 to 80% of the time, that don't understand why I'm asking for a usage fee. And they think I'm trying to pull a fast one, you know, and then you know, then it just goes a bit crazy. And then that leads to my next question where they're not understanding of rates, how do you think that affects the industry as a whole? Well,

    Marcus 17:29

    I suppose the the first law of any sector is always supply and demand. Now, up until 10, or 15 years ago, up until 10 years ago, there were only a few 100, home studio voiceovers in the country. You know, there really weren't when I, when I first built my home studio, which was the end of the 90s, I was one of probably 200 or 250, voice artists was home studios in the country. And it cost me a lot of money to set up at the time because it was ISDN and all of that it cost me probably 15 or 20,000 pounds to set my studio up to the cost of equipment has come right down. Well, yeah, and ISDN codec the box, you know, the way we're talking now, which is free over the internet, I mean, that that box alone was 4000 quid a decent mic was 2000 quid a decent interface was another two or 3000 quid, a booth was six or 7000 quid, you know, and plus all your cabling and your mixes and all of that stuff, it was an expensive thing to do. But now you know, you can set up a studio for 1000 quid, and just plug it into your computer you've already got and off you go. But we think there are at least 10,000 home studio voice artists in the UK at the moment at least. So there's a lot more people competing for the same amount of work maybe a little bit more work because of the internet AI has come along it's taking jobs away. So people natural inclination to get a foot in the door is to go in cheap. And so you know, we always tried to say to members and and because over locked down obviously there was no acting work. So loads and loads of our members built home studios because voice work was the only work that was still kind of going on during lockdown it was work that you could do from home. But unfortunately, that has put a downward pressure on rates. So I suppose what we would say is this is about getting educated and also about educating your clients about why they should be paying us this fee and also understanding and talent needs to have a realistic expectations. You know, you need to understand that if there are calculations out there and you can find them on the forums and you can you can look around for them, you know, you need to understand that, you know a certain amount of impressions is worth x. So if somebody's doing a YouTube, you know, social media commercials, you just need to say Look, can you can you give me an approximate idea of the impressions, the amount of times that might have it pairs of ears or eyes that are going to fall on this video and Usually they should know that because because they're having to buy the media to promote their, their video they, and often they'll come back to them, I don't know, because they want to get you to shoot. And, of course, there's a bit of a fine art, and then and then there's always the threat that I'll go somewhere else. And but sometimes you have to say goodbye to jobs, I have a kind of price point. And that's what I charge. It's a bit like, you know, let's say you were a, you know, a pretty skilled carpenter or a bricklayer or something like that, or your annual rate is 400 pounds a day, 500 pounds a day? Are you going to work for 50 quid or 30? quid a day? No. Probably been around for a while, you know, you're just going to say, Well, thanks, guys. But But yeah, it takes a long time to acquire acquire the knowledge. But there are some things that you wouldn't charge users for really, you know, I mean, it might just be that, you know, if you're doing an explainer video for a small company, that you know, that only a few 1000 People are going to see, or it's an internal video, you might just say, look, is a flat fee of 250 quid or 200 quid. There you go. You can you can have the usage on that, you know, yeah. I wouldn't recommend that. But sometimes that, you know, that's just practical. It's practical, if it hasn't got massive exploitation attached to it. And that's where voice artists get it wrong. They go, Oh, I've just done a, you know, I've just done a a TV ad, you know, and they only offered to pay me 500 pounds? Well, the first question is, uh, how many TV hours were there which is, which is which is how television view as measured. Now, if there were only 50 TV Rs, and it was only on for three days, then 500 quid might be the right amount of money, it doesn't always follow that a TV commercial is going to be 10 grand, 20 grand, but they can be depending on how long that job runs for and how long the exposures for and there are online calculators, like use v.tv, if anybody uses that calculated use, do you use that one? Yeah, I

    Jo Troy 21:55

    use that one. Yeah,

    Marcus 21:57

    yeah, use v.tv is a usage calculator that's put together with personal Managers Association. And, you know, and and has been discussed with various advertising agencies, and it's a sort of industry standard practice for for TV to use that calculator impressions is more difficult for, you know, online ads, audio books, unfortunately, at the moment, don't pay usage, you know, the recording fee buys buys you out for all usage and all sales, which is appalling. And we are trying to kind of get that that rectified. But you're up against the likes of the Amazons of the world, they're very big companies to to because they own audible, you know, but we are trying to talk to them about about that issue. Elearning tends not to be paid usage, but it depends on whether it's for a sort, of course that's behind a firewall or whether it's something that's going to be sold, you know, again, and again and again to different might be white labelled. And so you've just got to have your wits about you, you've got to kind of get as much information at the quoting stage as you can in order to build a picture of what it is really that the client wants. And then I had one the other day when someone said, How much for TV ad now, obviously quite a big client. And I said, Well, what's it for? And how long is it for and he says only 10 seconds won't take you long. Alright, and I said, What I can't give you a price unless you tell me. Now I just need a price. And I've got you know, so this went on, I wrote a very, I wrote an essay on usage to him and just explained, you know, but use V TV and everything just disappeared. So he was just rooting around the internet trying to find somebody who'll say, Yeah, I'll do it for 100 quid. And he was obviously frustrated at that point, because he definitely hit a number of voiceovers, he said the same thing as me, the end of the day doing this job. I mean, I think what another thing a lot of clients don't realise is they think, Well, you know, it's just a gig job is not to do this job properly is a full time job, as you know, your right to do to be available to make yourself available all day, and the weekends and everything else, you know, you've got to kind of be working out how many gigs you're getting. And you have to work out what you know, are you making a living from this? Is it possible to make a professional wage from voiceover? It is, and there are plenty of people out there who do but you know, but if you want to make if you want to give up your teaching job to make 40 or 45,000 pounds a year as a voiceover, you're gonna have to spend a lot of money on marketing and going to events and everything else. There's an awful lot of work you're gonna have to do to get to that that point. Yeah, you know, and that she's perfectly doable. But you've got to be available all day every day and you've got to live with the pit of your stomach feeling that you might not work today, and you might not work tomorrow, and then you might get three jobs on Friday. You know? I mean, we've all been now I've been living like that for years, but it's not a comfortable experience. When I started it was because there were so few of us it was very much easier but I'm you know, I would get very upset if I didn't get you know, a couple of jobs a day. Now I can go for a few days and go Well, you know it's a different In a different thing

    Jo Troy 25:01

    with social media content lasting forever, and, you know, you not knowing how long is actually going to, some people might say, we're going to run something for X amount of time, but you know that that's going to live on forever, organically. But how does one deal with that horrible word that vos hate is perpetuity? And how should one go around that?

    Marcus 25:27

    I would say never licence something in perpetuity, right? If somebody asks you for in perpetuity, just say no, and just say, Look, my in perpetuity price is going to be so much higher than just licencing it from Are you really going to be using this content in five years time? Do you want me to charge you sort of 200% of my BSF per year for the next 20 years to come up for an in perpetuity figure? Or realistically? Are you going to be using this for a year? People think that in perpetuity means that they own it. But I would say to a voice artist never ever get involved in in perpetuity. Right? It's very difficult. And in fact, it doesn't come up that often. Normally, you can normally you can say Look how long? You know, would you like for years usage? You just need to make sure you have to weigh up whether if your voice is heavily associated with one product, you're not going to work for any of that product rivals, even even if it's not officially set down. You know, Joe, you've got quite a recognisable voice. You know, if I hear your voice on that say, Oh, God, right, I want to I've run a washing machine company. All right. And you're you're doing my ad and I've bought your voice for in perpetuity. I've using your voice on a strapline you know, and then I don't know, Hotpoint are interested in you for another job. But but they're going on? Aren't you doing candy? Yeah, okay, sorry, mate, we can't use you. Right. And you've gone for a small fee you for in perpetuity gave away your you gave away your ability to work for competitors in a sector and what you know, and it might be that that might be all white goods. Yes. Big, big, big market, you know. And I would also say this is going to be a big problem with AI voices, is that people do AI recordings, in perpetuity, they just record for one fee, and they hand their voice over to be turned into an AI version of that voice. What's going to happen, and you've handed over all rights, what's going to happen when you suddenly hear your voice and you don't want it associated with something, or you get a TV, you get a really well paid TV gig. And they say is your voice associated with any other products and you think well, my I voice is working for loads of different companies out there, which I'm not getting paid for what you're going to do, I mean, you could easily be contractually ending your own career by doing that. So I would say be very, very careful recording being an AI voice. There are again, we are talking to some employers with a union about that, you know about sort of fair and ethical and allowing voice over certain amount of control over, you know, over the expletive you got to be really, really careful. And a lot of people think, Oh, God, I've just been paid 3000 pounds to be in a voice. Everyone's gonna hear my voice everywhere. Well, that's 3000 pounds isn't gonna go very far.

    Unknown Speaker 28:27

    Yeah.

    Marcus 28:28

    Do you know what I mean? So own, you know, and they're getting better and better. And the the AI stuff is getting better and better and better. I mean, how many and how many social media ads? Do you hear another voice by May I voice loads? Loads? Yeah, yeah, let's get loads and six months ago. Didn't hear them to do? Yeah, it was rapidly change. Yeah. You know, and that you could somebody could have been getting paid for that job. Yeah,

    Jo Troy 28:54

    that's true. That's true. Now we're just going to talk about the overall education into rates and usages. Do you think there's enough out there? And do you think it can be simplified to even more so

    Marcus 29:07

    there's plenty of information out there, if you go looking for it. Equity produces an audio guide, we've just updated it. So if you are a member of equity, the act is unit and I would, obviously I'm going to say that because I'm on the committee, but I would really recommend that people join and make it a part of your annual expenditure. Because apart from anything else, you get free legal protection. You know, so if you have got a legal dispute with the client and voiceover, they come up a lot, you know, you've got the weight of a union behind you and their lawyers. Yeah, to kind of get in touch with a rogue client. You know, somebody's ripped you off. We're not paid you. You get free public liability insurance as part of your membership. You get access to the pension scheme and I'm for and for self employed people. Come on, you know, I'm I mean, I'm as guilty as anybody else. But most of us don't have a pension. Because nobody's taking pension contributions when we work and you know, equity pensions are very good pension, you know, there's advice. There are people like you can get in touch with me anytime you're not I will talk to members, personally and give them an opinion and give them help. But I don't do it for non members, because there's just too many people, you know, and I do it for free. By the way, I don't get paid by equity. But I'm, you know, it is voluntary. But you know, I believe that there are, there's strength in numbers, and we need that, obviously, all of this sort of educational aspects. The audio guide is very good. It's got lots of good information in it. So you can download that from the equity website.

    Jo Troy 30:42

    Oh, thank you, sir. Thank you for your time. It's been really insightful. Yes. All right. Sorry. I've rabbeted over No, no, it's fine. It's perfect. It's just wanting to wrack your brain. And I love Burnsville information out of it. Thank you. Yeah. Nice

    Marcus 30:55

    to speak to you, Joe.

    Jo Troy 31:02

    So what have I learned from today's conversation? Use resources such as gravy for the brain records, equity, and the voice of a community around you to educate yourself on usage costs. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Never let the client dictate how much you should charge. Everyone has budgets I know. But it's your duty to educate the client as to why you should be paid what you're asking and how long they can use your voice for. Please done ground rates are not created equal. And rates can vary immensely dependent on the type of job. Please remember the rates that can be found online are only a minimum rate to please believe in your ability and charge what you think you.

    Jo Troy 32:02

    Thank you again

    Jo Troy 32:03

    to Marcus Houghton, equity and all the other boy surfers who helped make this episode possible. You can find information on myself equity and f1 in the show notes below. But looks like my time is up. I'm signing off. Until next time

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Jo Troy 0:26

    Today's adventure is about coaching. So did I get coaching? Hmm. When I started off, I didn't use a coach for two reasons. One, I didn't know where to get a trusted one from and to act did not have the funds. Plus, I'm impatient. I was mainly doing commercial reason, the beginning where the client would want to utilise my natural voice and dialect. So in my opinion, there was nothing I needed coaching with at the time, because I started off without vo coaching and was fighting success. I was very hesitant to get coaching and continue to practice with scripts and learning from session to session. Seeking coaching or mentor when trying to learn a new skill or speciality is definitely recommended vote I have done so over time. Like when I did my gaming demo, in my opinion, my acting and gaming experience was little to none so sought out to learn for bases, which helped at the time. So you may be thinking, Should I get a coach? Where do I find one? And what should I look for inner coach? legitimate questions, indeed. So I sat down with VoiceOver coach Sefa, inchie, founder of foresee voices to learn more. So for for those who don't know who you are, would you like to introduce yourself then?

    Sefa 1:45

    Now know, so yeah, my name is Sefa Nyki.

    Sefa 1:54

    I'm a voiceover artist. I'm an audio producer. And I'm also the founder of foresee voices, which is a platform for novice and experienced VoiceOver is we'd run through 40 voices, I run

    Sefa 2:11

    one to ones master classes are also transitioning into an agency as well, which we sort of do on the side anyway. So we're going to be fully focusing on the agency side of things. In Yeah, very, very soon. Wow. That's awesome. And how long that how did you get into voiceover? Okay, so my voiceover journey. So I've been a voiceover artist. Now about 10 years, I started, I have a radio background. So I

    Sefa 2:38

    really wanted to be a radio presenter, you know, I did a little bit of radio on bang radio is now the beat was on bank radio. Now the BFM really wanted to get into radio presenting. But in the meantime, I was still working in radio production.

    Sefa 2:51

    And it was when I was working at represent radio as assistant manager, that my manager at the time sort of said to me, oh, you should do the jingles for us. You know, you've got a nice voice, you know, you're doing the jingles. So I did it. You know, and it was actually her who then found or came across a competition on Facebook, I believe, where they were looking for new voices and agency were looking for new voices. So she was like, I'll see if you know, you've been talking about getting into voiceover work, you should totally apply for this shot. It's that manager by the way. I've seen her in years. But I'm shout out to her because she's one actually found this. And she was like I just totally apply for it. And I didn't really think much of it, I just put together some of my jingles and some of my radio work was put through off like a little two minute reel. And luckily, from that ends up getting shortlisted down to the Final Four, from, you know, say 1000s of people that entered not really knowing myself at that point.

    Sefa 3:46

    I guess how to get into the voiceover industry, I've been speaking to her about it, but I didn't quite know the steps to take much like a lot of people that come through my doors, you know, it's very much you know, I didn't really know anyone that looked like me sounded like me, that was in the industry. So it was kind of like a bit of this elusive, like, where what is this world, but anyway, got shortlisted. So they're down to the final form. And in order for them to select the final one, we're going to have to go along with like a recording day. So all four of us so well, because at the BBC global, just a bunch of different sports in Soho, like you know, the home of

    Sefa 4:20

    just record different sports and like when I read that, like in the email, I was like, oh, no, this is not for me. Like it's very peacefully. I'm not good with like strangers at the time.

    Sefa 4:31

    But, um, you know, up until the day, I was not going, you know, I was very much like, you know, this is not for me, you know, I'm glad to have come this far and I'm grateful. So, final top four is good enough for me. You know, and then, you know, it was literally my boyfriend. The day was like, Listen, you never know what can happen. Just get up and go. Just go somewhere. So you know, I literally dragged my feet there's competition honestly, we meet at YC BBC TV studios, and you know, I put my head out of the station I looked left I saw like

    Sefa 5:00

    Cars and cameras. That was the whole thing. And I was like, You know what? See, why should I look you've come this far, use it an opportunity to network. One thing I can do is network most often, I mean, I can make phone calls, I can chat to people's as a linear network. So I went and so so done a very peacefully, it was me and other girl and into guys. And

    Sefa 5:21

    I thought one of the guy sounded like heaven, his voice was just so smooth. So so my mind here really won, you know, he was the guy who thought about the garland TV, you know, ended up being a great day went long, like I said, so all these different spots in central and Soho, just recording different video scripts. And I was along the way, just taking those of email addresses down like I'm gonna contact you after that, I'm gonna call you I'm gonna call you I'm a network this you know, I mean, this is the as I was doing the all the like the little script reads or what have you all the different locations I was like falling more and more in love with this world of vO and I was like, this is definitely for me, like, I need to have this in my life has to be me. So you know, let the competition and I was buzzing to be honest. Contract. I thought I was going to feel I was buzzing. The other voices were amazing. Like one guy in particular, I thought was brilliant. And I was buzzing. I was like, Listen, come Monday. I'm emailing everybody. I was gonna, like, make sure that this is my life. And then, you know, before I even got a chance to email you know, I got a phone call from the competition people and they were like, Thank you for taking part sci fi like, congratulations, you've won. And I'm like

    Sefa 6:29

    alright, just called the guy the other guy. She's like what? We've got no one that sounds like you and our books and stuff like that and we think you sound really authentic and X y&z And you know, I went into it pretty much kind of doubting myself a little bit. I'm from South London, I don't pronounce my T's. You know, I'm just very much a man.

    Sefa 6:48

    From South I'm from my group. I'm born and raised in Lewisham. And so for me, I didn't really think my voice was anything special until my agency who was Hobson's at the time, and that's little Hobson to this day. There's going to be a one year contract, and it's been 10 years plus. Yeah, and that's pretty much the start of my voiceover journey. So listen, awesome.

    Jo Troy 7:08

    Awesome story, actually, what? So you done this competition? Yeah. And you were thrown in at the deep end? Did you get coaching at any point? You know, my coaching was actually like, we were saying, before we started this, I went on YouTube a lot. Because it's funny. My first job was

    Sefa 7:28

    for Burger King. And it came maybe like, a week after winning this competition. And my agent called me and she was like, oh, yeah, listen, I know who signed your contract yet. But we've got this job coming. And we think you'd be perfect for it. She put you forward in this valley King, I was like, you know, do it, you know. And when she said that, I just thought of one on the YouTube. And I started like Googling and searching and coaching myself, essentially, I didn't get I've never had any professional coach. And I just sort of did it myself. I've always been pretty confident on Mike anyway. And I just saw some opportunities, like sharpen up my presenting skills and just sort of went into it like that. And yeah, it was no professional coaching, just like personal on my own coaching, to be honest. Wow. So you're, you're self taught. So what made you want to become a coach? Yeah. So throughout my radio career, I've also done radio training, radio broadcast training. So I've been doing that a lot through work at represent. And getting into voiceover coaching, pretty much key because for years, I didn't do it.

    Sefa 8:31

    I voiceover coach, I did it. On the side for people that I knew that wanted to get into vo go to this, you know, I mean, I do it like one on one with them, but never as an official business or job. And it was only when I would get inundated with and I still do DMS and messages and the emails just in regards to people wanting to get into voiceover work that I will sit in with a friend and I wanted to sort of like funnel all of this because what I would do in the past is even, like take people along for like my sessions, like looks in and network and you know, see who you can speak to and just like, you know, just see what I can what I do. And then you know, see what you can do from there. And you know, some people would you know, take micro sometimes I'd spend hours with people that I don't even know like just on Instagram or Twitter, you know, just sitting in meeting them up and you know, giving them a play by play and what to do when the steps they can take and who they can speak to someone do it some wouldn't. Is that actually the one that didn't do it that would annoy me the most. It's like I was like a lot of time and effort that went into this. Yeah, but it was more that it was ones that I was helping that we're following the steps I kind of wanted to just nurture them a little bit more. I feel like I'm quite a nurturing person having my radio training background as well as felt like I need to sort of like funnel this into one space. And it started off actually not even as training. It started off just as an event. It was a sold out event a voiceover event that that I did where I wanted to bring people from the voiceover community into one space and talk to everyone that looked like me sounded like me about how to get into VO So Ramallah

    Sefa 10:00

    Adam was on the panel. Carrie was on the panel. Rio was on the panel, Stefan Jai

    Sefa 10:06

    bunch of people Yeah, it was a panel of about six, including myself. I was hosting it. But it was more than just Oh, and Jack. So Jack sound design was independent as well.

    Sefa 10:17

    But it was more just like bringing different people with different expertise from the industry to just speak about their experiences and give advice. Because again, like I said, when I first went into it, I just didn't know who to speak to what to speak about. It was just a bit. And yeah, the event wouldn't have been amazing. In the event. Someone came up to me, she was like, Oh, do you do training? And I was like, Yes, I do. So I went home and I curated this, like massive masterclass on voiceovers. And, you know, I was just typing away I was so like, I was buzzing off the back of the event. And I knew I wanted to, I knew what people need to learn, just from doing the event. I knew what people wanted to know, I knew what, how to put a class together. I just like, came up with a master class. And then I think a couple weeks later, I put it on socials. And then yeah, we'll just it's been a whirlwind ever since to be fair.

    Sefa 11:05

    And I also knew that being the introvert, slash extrovert, that I am quite introverted, that people wouldn't necessarily all only want to do a masterclass. I also put together a one to one session, and then advanced level and I just, you know, I'll just type in for hours, like just

    Sefa 11:22

    it was it was crazy. But yeah, that's kind of what grew and took me in the direction of like, actually training and doing personalised one to one trainers and what what stage of voiceovers career,

    Jo Troy 11:36

    like, when would they normally contact you? A lot, right? So it's varied over the years, to be honest, I've get people have no idea what VoiceOver is, they, you know, maybe you have discovered or someone's told them, or over the years, they found out that they've got a really nice voice, or they've done some research from VO, it could be anything, those are the people that are just brand new, no experience, like never been in a studio before type of thing. Yeah, I get those people

    Sefa 12:03

    from all ages, old, young, everything. A lot of parents as well hit me up just wanting their kids to do it as well, I don't really do children yet.

    Sefa 12:12

    And then I get people who have maybe, because we do voice reproduction as well. So then I get people who have maybe had training elsewhere, and maybe weren't too happy with their training or didn't feel like they got a lot out of it.

    Sefa 12:26

    And kind of want to expand on it a little bit. Want a brand new fresh voice real. So it kind of it really does range. Because some people for example, I've got a couple of clients who are continuity on some big channels, but they've never done commercial voiceover and I pretty much specialise in commercial VO. So these are guys that have been continuity readers for years, on big stations, you know, but they've never had any commercial experience in vO. So, you know, their, their voice is so tailor that they sound amazing doing their community work is I mean this, I always say continuity, voiceovers, that a different breed. Yeah. That just like, you have to be born to do, I believe, anyway, they sound just insane. But they also want to get into commercial stuff as well as I get those guys. So like I said, it's not just people that are brand new. It's people that are in different fields of the industry. Yeah, as well. So, so if I was to send you an email, knowing my history and the stuff I've done, yeah. What would you do with somebody like me, that's got maybe a little bit of experience, but I haven't got the extent, extensive experience of say, someone like yourself has been in it for 10 years. What's the first thing you would do? Like me, I would obviously narrow down what it is, where you are in your career? Like, do you have a voice role? Have you got studio experience? That type of stuff, first of all, and then I would probably direct you to either Well, first of all, when I want to hear voice room, yeah, I'm gonna kind of want to hear the type of video you've done. And just from listening to a voice through I will ever assess if I say, You know what I feel like, a lot of people come to me at that stage because they're wanting to find or get more work essentially, or get an agent or because they might be getting work themselves, but maybe haven't got an agent, and they want to get an agent. So maybe I'll tailor your voice real just a little or tweak it a bit because it might be brilliant, but I might tweak it a bit to make an agent ready. also potentially I had a girl similar to you actually who's got a bit of experience amazing voice

    Sefa 14:29

    hasn't got an agent had a voice real but wanting to get that extra experience. So we will do something maybe like an advanced session which is a bit like talking to picture and talking to the time in my master classes or one to one some one to ones. We don't really do anything to time we just do it for the sake of like getting you vocally ready, working on your vocal range. That's part one. But you know in vo everything is pretty much the time like time. Of course you know, time is not really your own in this industry.

    Sefa 14:59

    Literally you've got

    Sefa 15:00

    10 seconds, you got six seconds, you've got five seconds. And so in the advanced sessions we go through talking to picture which is where you know that eight the client will probably send you a video and give you the script to say, you know, fit your lock yourself in between these bits. So you do discover spoken to picture. I also do a little bit of animation in gaming as well, because it's a whole nother industry. Slowly, I keep knocking them animation and gaming because that's a whole nother industry that people are unaware of, which is a really lucrative industry, no but dumping as well. There's so many layers to this to this job, like so many different industries you can be in. And so we go over that type of stuff. So someone like you, I would definitely throw straight into an advanced session, you have to experience you've worked with an engineer before I can literally put you into a situation say look, these are our scripts here's I want to focus on, get you working on some animation scripts, you know, give me some ABC takes working on that vocal array pushing you out of your comfort zone as I'm and I love to push people out of their comfort zones, because I discover amazing things about people's voices in those moments that they didn't even know themselves sometimes they can actually do. I mean, I love doing an advanced session. It is like one of the favourite things. I mean, I love training period.

    Sefa 16:07

    I'm quite passionate about you know, getting new voices in and you know, discovering things about people's voices that they may not know for themselves. So for you, or someone like you is definitely straight into an advanced session. And then we're going to assess your voicemail, make sure that it's I guess, Agent ready or getting as much traction as you possibly could get, either by adding additional scripts or taking away some things I don't feel like complement your voice. Okay. And so do you think that a person's accent or dialect would change the way that they're coached? Do you believe that somebody that might be from Liverpool, for example.

    Jo Troy 16:47

    And they come to say yourself, it would you treat them differently to meet basically, I've had a man by the way, I've had Liverpudlian and Mancunians. And people from Birmingham, and all over the world, actually, French loads, loads of people.

    Sefa 17:03

    So I'll just work backwards. Voice realm, your voicemail will definitely be more tailored to your accent and the kind of work you're going to actually get. Yes, we have to be realistic about this industry, sometimes,

    Sefa 17:18

    certain accent, certain voices aren't really going to get every type of work, they may not, for example, a Frenchman a French accented person is not going to get potentially, I take that back, I'm gonna say something was actually a lie. As long as I was gonna say that French accented person would never get continuity on e4. Well, that's a lie, because it's a big lie. So they've got a baby, that's a big lie. I've used that as an example. But it's a bad is a bad example. But But ultimately, it would be tailored for a Mancunian, especially on their voice, real things that are more tailored to the kind of products they're gonna sell, the kind of shows are going to introduce a promo, instead, it's gonna be very much specific to them. In terms of the general training is going forward again, in terms of the general training, one to one or a masterclass, we can all read the same scripts, and we can read them with certain and we can push people's vocal range in those areas as well, where it will change is just probably pretty much for voice real. And even then even animation scripts or even animation on narration, because certain companies just wouldn't use that an accent for whatever reason, they wouldn't especially got a really strong accent. Yeah, they're gonna they're just not going to do it. And I'm yet to be proven wrong on that. So

    Sefa 18:33

    yeah, cuz there's instances where, you know, sometimes people start to dial your accent back, or,

    Sefa 18:39

    you know, or more. Oh,

    Jo Troy 18:43

    I've had my fair share. And yeah, I just feel though your accent back. I

    Jo Troy 18:50

    know, some people ask for more. Some people ask for less. Right, right. I've I've had either or

    Jo Troy 18:57

    I've learnt, you know, just have a range.

    Jo Troy 19:03

    Yeah, just to have an I used to take kind of, not, I would see it as Yeah, I used to take offence to it in the beginning, but the longer I was in, you know, the industry I learned not, you know, my accent is my superpower. And as long as I stay true to myself, it's okay to tone it down or tone it up, because essentially, I'm acting it that's fine. So just don't say goodbye to that. Yeah. And, you know, in the beginning, I was this was before I even stepped foot into a studio onto a mic to do voiceover. I remember I was looking at articulation lessons and because I felt that's how a voiceover had to sound like pronounce the T's and all of this. And that's just one of the examples.

    Jo Troy 19:51

    You know, I found out very quickly that no, you you should sound different.

    Jo Troy 19:57

    You should have an extensive vocal range.

    Sefa 19:59

    You and I will just honestly lean on the tea situation for a second. You know, when it comes to the pronunciation of teas? Like I said, I didn't pronounce my t very well. So if I do what I will do, you know, where I'll give the client an option? So I do a lot of Celebrity Juice, right?

    Sefa 20:17

    So another even as I just said it right, so I'll be like, brand new Celebrity Juice, right? I say to the client, and then what do you want a celebrity or celebrity to be like, brand new Celebrity Juice? So I can say I can do both? Yes, my natural thing is just to say a celebrity. Because that's how I would like to do one more time when I hear on TV. So celebrity because I like to know what sounds natural, just how it is. My body's gonna say, I'm able to like you. Just make sure I can, I can dial it up and I can meet my T's and all my letters can be right there for you. Or I can just be my very natural speaking stuff and drop it completely. But having that vocal range is what's important to the job. All the time vocal range, your voice acting, yes, it's been able to showcase a wide variety of emotions, sounds accents and voices from one human, and that is really where you get your USP. Yeah, definitely. For those who don't know what USP means, what does USP unique

    Sefa 21:16

    Okay, cool. So unique selling power, having that amazing, but you've been your voice is your USP already anyway, yeah, is that everyone's voice is unique. No one sounds like you know what I mean? Or whether you're at your own advantage, I do stress the importance of, you know, enunciation. And even if you don't brush your teeth, or certain letters, or you know, you're lazy, you have certain words, you know, when you when you're giving given a script, you're gonna have to read it, and people going to have to understand what you're saying. So you have to your diction has to be on point. And I really stressed that importance of diction. I'm on a one on one conversation, probably even this podcast, I mumble, I talk so fast. I'm a fast, fast, fast talker, I mumble most of my way, a lot of the time when I'm talking one on one. But in when I have a script, oh, you can't mess with me. I'm enunciate in silence. Because I really I really do stress the importance of that no matter what your accent is, or how you speak, you know, just enunciate well.

    Jo Troy 22:10

    Now he, I love the thing I wanted to ask is, there's a lot of people out there that offer coaching, now that I see them there.

    Jo Troy 22:22

    what point do you feel you can call yourself a coach? And what skills do you have to have to call yourself question God? Such a great question, because I do. I mean, there are a bunch of coaches, I don't know what some of the accolades are, what they aren't, I don't know. And for me, you need to have a password.

    Sefa 22:48

    You need to have like a shitload of voice over actual voice over experience whereby you have been booked by a client, other than yourself.

    Sefa 22:59

    And I say that because a lot of people will like, you know, I guess do a lot of voice work and just put it out button. So you know, I've been I've got voicemail, I had voice work. And it's like, no, no, no, someone needs to have actually paid you for your time to voice a product or promo something. Yeah, we're continuously where you have, because that also is Bill's experience that client, voiceover communication. A lot of people don't even know how to communicate with a client, I can negotiate fees, XY and Z. This is what builds your experience up, you know, going into the studio, knowing how to deal with clients, when you're in the studio, knowing how to act when you're in a session. You know, there's this, I don't know if it's misconduct, I don't know what it is. But some people say just think about when you go into a studio, and you know, you get you get the script, and you're reading, reading, reading, and you just have to, you have to read it as how can I say this, you have to read it as it is right? Take the scripts and read it. However, when you're in a session, as a professional voiceover artist, the clients obviously hold your voice real, you are able to give and receive feedback, you are able to know what can I try like this for you, because you might prefer it like this. And just being able to even have those little types of conversations that people are unaware of. Sometimes your best self is not what the client has asked you to do. You might say to the client in a certain way. You know what, I think I can make this sound a little bit better for you. Can I try it like this for you? Let me like you know give you that example. And they'll present Oh yeah, no problem. I know what you were right. But certain times because gonna go into it and read it as it is in the paper without even giving your own personal flair. Just because you don't have the experience. You just don't know if you have made an abundance of YouTube videos on how to be a voiceover artist but I've yet to have had any vo work yourself. I'm not sure if that makes you credible in this industry or not. I can't say that is

    Sefa 24:51

    I don't I also don't think that you know, being a voice trainer or whatever it has to come from just voiceover artists. It can come from client

    Sefa 25:00

    It can come from a production point of view as well. engineers work a lot with VoiceOver artists. They know the ins and outs of what sounds good. They know the ins and outs they can probably train to. But it's more the people that haven't had any experience in the industry that I'm like, this is a waste of money, time and effort. Do you believe coaches should be active in the industry while they're coaching? Or Would would you would you recommend somebody that's new into the voice over world to get coaching from someone that's not actively working?

    Sefa 25:36

    That's a great question.

    Sefa 25:39

    My heart says you should be active. Yeah. Because you know, it's current. And you know, what's happening right now in the industry, you should at least have Mark says you should be actively working in the industry to be able to coach everyone has a dry spell, don't get it twisted. Yeah, of course. Everyone has a dry spell in this industry.

    Sefa 25:59

    If you have a workflow, five years, I don't think you should be actively given that. Oh, but then it's but you know, what is? You know, what is that? Crazy one between

    Sefa 26:09

    singing coaches, people that singing coaches, I would think of that singing coaches have never been in the industry. But they know what sounds good, and they can coach you to death.

    Jo Troy 26:22

    I feel singing is a bit more black and white there. Yeah. Because, you know, you know, if you don't, you don't hear and I feel we've where so far is very much, you know, what's in right now? Yeah. Do you feel the same way about acting? Coach, you

    Jo Troy 26:40

    know, because

    Jo Troy 26:45

    yeah, is acting again, is I'm on offence with that, because we've acted, I feel you learn the fundamentals. Yeah. But it's up to that individual to run with it. And yeah, I can, I can teach you everything.

    Jo Troy 26:59

    But then it's up to you to implement it. And I guess it's kind of the same with via, I don't know, it's difficult. So I'm on the fence. I mean, I can only come from an active myself and active working voiceover artist who is working all the time. So I you know, I'm constantly learning new things and speaking to people and

    Sefa 27:18

    learning new things about the industry probably every single day. So that I'm that I'm able to implement into my coaching into my sessions. And at the same time, when you come to a session with foresee it's not just about, you know, the physical, I mean, the the physical training in the studio, we also do like a lot of talking. And sometimes you can only answer those questions if you're actually actively in the industry. Yeah, of course. And that's where if somebody asks us a question to someone who's not in the industry, they might just fluff it, just for the sake of saying whatever, I don't know, but they won't have the answers to certain questions. Because if it's not in the industry, so it's difficult for you to go to someone who hasn't, has never worked, or as an active voice overpriced, or

    Sefa 28:01

    really doesn't have any hands on experience, it's a bit difficult to put your trust in that person, as a person as a coach, can you what could you do and say to them, you know, what, what makes you credible enough to say this is the formula? Yeah, to get me ahead. So actually, to answer your question, I do think that a person needs to be actively working in the industry to be a coach.

    Sefa 28:22

    Oh, there was hired and they gave up? Not that they couldn't get any work. Yeah. Yeah. Are they retired, and they would just decide to stop, but they still have all the fundamentals in their brain, and they're still actively in industry? And what should what should the new vo or an existing Vo will look for when they're looking for a coach? I would give my example of the reason I didn't get coaching in the beginning, is because, yes, I went in by myself. I made something of myself by myself. And I felt like nobody could tell me how to do what I'm doing. Yeah. This was early in, in maybe the first six to 12 months. Yeah, obviously, looking back. I know. You can always learn and that's just life in general. But in the first six to 12 months, I was like, you can't tell me how to do why I'm doing especially commercial work, because commercial work is about the individual specifically, and why am I going to you know, go to a coach

    Jo Troy 29:26

    voices why going?

    Jo Troy 29:29

    In general, I'm like, why am I party with my money? Show? That, you know, I? You can't tell me how to be me. Now. Now, why would I come to you?

    Sefa 29:46

    But actually, I would almost say that, you know, 4c voices isn't for people like you. Yeah, it's actually for people who don't know what to do. Because some people are thinking, You know what, I have no clue where to start. I'm here to help you get

    Sefa 30:00

    your wheels in motion, to be completely honest. And maybe there are plenty of people who are like you who know what, and I'm bearing in mind. I didn't come from a coaching voiceover background. Yeah, I mean, it was literally a figure out for yourself. And some people are great, like you are great at figuring out for themselves, go for it. And for me, don't park with your good good coin, even for my business. I'm not here for you, I cannot help you. Because you clearly can help yourself. Maybe I can tell you one or two things, I can give you a couple of email addresses that you may not had before. I can point you in a certain direction, I can tell you what a great Mike to get. I can give you many other little gems, potentially you personally Jo Troy, maybe I can take these you may not know. But maybe when it comes to the actual physical training, you might be like, I'll see if I'm good for this. You might come to an advanced session look old, you know what I've done talking to picture. I know how to do animation. I know how to handle clients. I know how to approach a client. I know how to approach agents. I'm actually good. I'm like, Cool. Can you be great? Yeah, actually be amazing. But it's for those individuals who feel like you know what, I need that little boost? I've been on Fiverr or Mandy or chat those other things, whatever website did not shout them, but no shade to them. Yeah, I've been on all these websites. And I've been here for x amount of time. And I feel like a little boost to help me get to the next level as we can come and see me. And maybe I'll give you a gym or a piece of advice. Or I'll point you in a direction that you will you were not looking at before. And you know what, enter force voices, but maybe I'm not for you. And I'm actually not claiming to be for read for everyone. Yeah, completely honest. Yeah, I'm actually for the person who doesn't know how to what mics again, doesn't know what editing software to use, doesn't even know how to record from the mic into their computer doesn't know any of that stuff. And it's not even that complicated. But some people just do not have a clue. Yeah. And to foresee voices. So there's multiple different strings to what we're actually doing here. It's the person who really either wants a boost, they've been trying it by themselves, or has no clue where to start. And many of you just have no clue. That was fine. So you don't even have to have a clue. That's why we're here. I love that.

    Jo Troy 32:16

    I think what you said, you know, just encapsulate the whole coaching thing, because it's not necessarily about you know, it could be just a conversation. It could be like, Oh, you could speak to this person? Yeah. Or there's no demos or what mics to get it? Yeah. It's just sharing of knowledge. And that's why I mean, you know, the six or 12 months, when I first started, that was me being ignorant, or just like, ah, oh, I hate you. Like, he didn't help me. I did it by myself, you know, kind of attitude. And then over time, you're like, okay, my, I need to work on this. Because I know, I can get other jobs. But you know, and you learn as you go along, you know, but yeah, I think I think that encapsulates the whole coaching. No, absolutely. Absolutely. And like I like I said, it's just to reiterate, I don't even what we do, before see is literally it's not it may not be for everyone, I've had people that have, like I said, they've had voicemails they've got, or had, they've got voicemails, and they literally just want to like, expand on their skills through and I'm only expanding, giving you stuff that I've done. And look, here's how I've done it. And here's how it goes. And here's the scripts you should be focusing on, here's the way in which you should be reading them. Here's what you should be doing in order to get your voiceover career to that level that you wanted to be, whether it's the beginning stages, and you just want to like focus on getting one job a month, and then you want to you know, grow it over that then come see me I'm here to help you. And it is it's not free advice. Granted, because I got like building stuff, I got a mortgage. Oh,

    Sefa 33:54

    you know, there has to be a funnel a space for me to give you the information and the services are given. Like I said, I give it when I say I give it freely like I give it but it's not free in terms of money is free because wholeheartedly I'm not trying to get keep this industry for anybody. I'm really I want people that look like me sound like me, that are passionate about this industry like me or even just want to try it to give it their I want to give them the best possible start. No one gave it to me. Yeah. I luckily, I was lucky enough to be in a position where I won a competition. And then people would talk to me talk to me talk to me, how can I do it? How can I do it? And I can give you what I knew at the time. It was very little. I didn't start foreseeing until I was what eight, nine years in eight years in to this industry where I had eight years I've experienced through it just been full time in it for five years prior to that. So do not I mean it was to know what maybe I am in the best position to give you the steps, the keys, the knowledge, the information, the training that you need to just try a thing. Some people think they can

    Sefa 35:00

    DVO and they can't, I'm sorry to say that not everyone can do it. They think they can do it. They say I've got, oh, my mum told me I've got a great voice. Listen, everyone's mum, dad, my mom loves my voice for days, just and when I put you in front of that mic, and I give you that script, it's a whole new world.

    Sefa 35:19

    And they don't realise something just don't realise it. So yeah, it's those people that you know, like you, I've got this I can read.

    Sefa 35:27

    Me, I say, Me, I'm happy that you know, good luck. Like, honestly, good luck. I wish you every one of you the absolute best. Like it is literally my only go I wish everyone the absolute best. But when you step in to my doors, through my foresee doors, and I give you a script that you may be unfamiliar with. That's when we're really gonna see where you are in this industry.

    Sefa 35:51

    And it's a whole new world, like it's not as simple as people think it is. People will struggle for certain things. Some people will walk for certain people that come through the doors. I'm like, Oh, you've got this. You don't even need to like I always say to people all the time, you don't even have to come to any more training. You can literally just go straight to a voicemail. Let's do that. Now. Why even here? It was loved honesty. Honestly do it. I'm not saying like I'm not doing it for the coins. I feel like I'm not. I'm just here to make sure that you're not going to produce a really short voicemail and get no bookings and then be looking at me like Well, what did you get me the voicemail for I'm like, Well, you weren't quite ready. What was it anyway? And I hate to produce short voicemails for cost and honestly, it's got your name on it now. Yeah.

    Sefa 36:32

    Don't Don't don't make mistakes. You know.

    Sefa 36:35

    Let's do it. Steve. Let's do it. And I really I try to avoid that as best I can to be completely honest. But yeah, man, it's just it's a different industries. It's not as easy as people think. So yeah, it's not for everyone, but it's for you. Um, yeah. Let's see if off. Thank you for taking time out today. I'm

    Sefa 36:55

    passionate about it. So well. Thank you again. And um, yeah, let's keep in touch. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you,

    Jo Troy 37:03

    Alyssa.

    Jo Troy 37:10

    So what did I learn from today's conversation? A coach comes in different forms, and can offer you teachings, advice or guidance. If you have the funds and I'm a complete novice, I would definitely recommend a coach to steer you in the right direction. Make sure about any coaching you do get this something useful that you can use to get work right away like a new accent or demo result. Don't feel pressured into getting a coach if you don't feel is right for you. Take your time and when the time is right, you.

    Jo Troy 37:43

    Just because someone else has used a specific coat doesn't mean best style will work for you. So make sure you do your research on what you want versus what is being offered. And finally, be willing to learn. Don't be an ignoramus like me, it will get you nowhere. Even if you don't want to learn from a coach or mentor. You can do it yourself. Follow other voiceovers, study what they do, practice and be a sponge.

    Jo Troy 38:14

    Thank you Sefa for speaking with me and making this episode possible. If you are new or seasoned in industry and looking for some coaching, you can find the information or foresee voices in the show notes below as always. Great. Looks like my time is up for this week, signing out till the next episode.

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and auto industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way. Oh, branding is the word that comes up a lot if you work in the creative industry. When I used to hear the word, I would think of a certain company or famous person using their brand to make themselves memorable. I'm sure we all can reference a particular company or person when thinking of a certain product or lifestyle. But we all have our own personal brand. And being a voice over means having to understand branding quickly. We need to create our brand and understand what part of our lives should be incorporated in it. So today's adventure, we're going to learn about branding as a voice over artist. When I realised I needed to create branding for myself, the first thing I did was focused on designs and layouts for I liked. I also looked at the layouts of other voiceovers websites. My personal preference was I like simple minimal layouts, I took inspiration and incorporated all I saw and put it into my own website. I like to think of my website as my office or billboard as this is wherever I would direct someone to have a look at my business, or where someone would go with a Google search meet all criteria. I made my website on Squarespace. This is not a sponsor, I wish anyway, I wasn't sure if this was the best approach. But I knew I needed to be visible and I was content with what I initially created. The website, I could do all my work as a voiceover, including my previous demos. But I realised that for Tyent, I wasn't enough. My website had to showcase my work and also myself as an individual. I took inspiration from musicians websites, and ultimately wanted to recreate that, but repurpose it for the voiceover world. I wanted people to feel like they will be working with a real person, not just the voice. So I made changes over time to my website, including a new colour palette, new demos, new layouts and pictures that represented me as a person. You can have a look at my new website, and please let me know what you think. Remember, be nice. In this episode, I speak to brand and web designer Helen B. from this talk, I'm hoping to learn more about branding strategies, how to best represent yourself as a video branding tricks and answer some questions that some of you have. Let's go. Would you like to introduce yourself and tell people what it is that you do?

    Helen 2:55

    Yeah, so hi, my name is Helen. So I'm half of a company called be doubly my husband and business partner, which sounds like a match made in hell. But it seems to be working. So we provide services for voiceovers. Rob has been working as an audio producer and engineer for years, 20 plus years. And through him, I got to know a lot of voiceovers, unsurprisingly. So I've always known of the industry. And then, not long after I went freelance and started up doing branding and web design. I've always done it for marketing and advertising agencies. That's been my background since I was at university many, many years ago, just as Google was launching years ago. And yeah, so it became a I got a kind of basically got sick of working for companies I didn't really believe in in ways I didn't really want to work and so found my home with a voiceover world.

    Jo Troy 3:57

    Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So um, my first question is why is branding so important in voiceover?

    Helen 4:06

    I think let's just start with the light one. Yeah. Do

    Jo Troy 4:09

    you know me?

    Helen 4:13

    So I think I think there's a kind of misconception of what branding actually is, which is what makes it important. So branding is is very much not just about colours and logos and fonts and typefaces and all that kind of stuff. Branding is basically how you chat to potential clients, existing clients, how you talk in the world, and how you turn up in the world whether that be face to face talk or in conversation, whether that be online, whether that be social media, through your for voiceovers through the demo reels and show reels absolutely every element of you, telling people what you do and trying to get work is is branding. It's the colours bid and the low Go bit is a part of it. And that's one of the ways that you can start to become a bit more recognisable, a bit more instantly recognisable. But the branding itself is very much about how you communicate with other people. And I think that's quite often understood. So the reason it's important is to be able to communicate effectively to existing and potential clients, you're effectively branding, whether you intentionally doing it or not. And so the process of actually working out your brand is to try and work out a concept, kind of constant way of doing things and how you want to be viewed by other people. It's something you can control to a certain extent. So branding is effectively controlling how you are viewed and how you talk and chat, ma and promote what you do.

    Jo Troy 5:47

    And what would you say would be the do's and don'ts for branding? This speaks specifically for VO, like what would you say? Definitely not to win? But would you? Yeah, what would you encourage people to do?

    Helen 6:00

    I think, definitely, for voiceovers, you need to own it, you need to be comfortable with it, you need to feel sort of a sounds a bit sounds a bit twee, but at one with who you are in terms of what you're selling. So if you are unconfident or unsure, for instance, say, you know, if you're selling a certain type of voiceover, and you're unconfident in it in your own abilities, that will quite probably come across in your branding and your marketing. And so self belief is a really big one, but also don't necessarily believe that what somebody tells you to do is going to work for you either. Everybody is different, everybody's ways of communicating are different, everybody's perfect clients are going to be different. And it's working out who those people are before you necessarily start working. And as I say, branding, and marketing, it's kind of there's some very blurred lines between the two. Work out the type of client and the type of work that you want to do if you don't want to do audiobooks, I always pick audiobooks, because they're kind of Marmonte for voiceovers, you either kind of love or hate. If you if you love them, then great go for it. If you hate them, then then don't, don't put yourself forward for those kinds of work. You know that job, if you don't want to work for a certain type of client, then then don't believe that there is enough people wanting to work with you in the in the stuff that you specialise in. And I think that's a big part of it is kind of, yeah, as if it sounds woolly, potentially. And it's very difficult when you're starting out because you might not know that, yeah, is willing to explore it and build it and be willing to drop stuff if that's if you kind of do stuff we've all I've I've certainly spent most of my fair chunk of my career, trying to work out what I didn't enjoy doing. Before I got a bit that I did, I spent 15 years doing it. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think you know, you just be open to the exploration of it and and listen to what your heart's telling you sometimes

    Jo Troy 8:10

    when somebody is trying to create a brand. And you know, they might go on various other voiceover websites and try to get inspiration. Especially this is what I did when I started anyway, I found you have no software service who don't like to show their faces who will show animations to represent themselves. Some people have their face plastered everywhere. Some people want to throw all of their work all over their website. And it's like, you know, a freefall. And some people are a lot more reserved and minimal, like what is your view on that?

    Helen 8:49

    There's one thing that you said in that that really shouted is that when you've got loads and loads of examples, it's really difficult for people to understand what's going on, there's almost too much choice. And I think that is definitely a danger. I think if you have hundreds and hundreds of different samples of you doing stuff, then it's very difficult for someone coming to that dry not knowing, probably not knowing who you are or what you do to get a sense of what it is nobody is going to listen to 40 demo reels, and nobody's got the time. So I think it's trying to work out, as I say, work out the kinds of genres or the jobs that you really, really want to get to and aim for those other jobs will naturally come in, you know, there's, there's work I do for the people and for voiceovers that's not just branding and website stuff. It's not necessarily on my portfolio, but as you know, if we if it feels right to do that kind of work, then I'm not gonna say no, sometimes I will. Sometimes I won't. And I think it's the same with voiceovers if you want to really get into gaming animation or corporate stuff. Make sure those As reels are on your site, make sure it's really obvious what you do to help the client, whether that be directly working with the business explaining a bit of the process, how they can get in touch with you. Or if you're more working with agents and stuff, obviously, it's different for each genre. So you've got to know what genre you want to aim at so that you can talk to those people. If you're talking to I'm going to pick audiobooks, if you're talking to an author, what they're after for an audio book is very different to what somebody wants really learning or what somebody needs for a character reel. So I think there's that, in terms of the faces, I think it's a lot down to the person. Again, it's it's a bit of personal preference. The one thing I will add is that I believe that people buy from people people like to know, yes, they're buying from a real human being. And if you have your photo on there, they're much more likely to believe and build that relationship with it, they're going to trust you a lot more if they can actually see your face. You don't necessarily have to have 400 photos of you, do you

    Jo Troy 11:09

    think it helps more? For example, if you are from a ethnic background? For example, do you think that might sell you more than somebody, for example, obviously, I'm a person of colour. So if you see down your website, you're looking for that, then that is my USP, so to speak, or a part of it. Rather than if you didn't see my face? You know, you might not know that

    Helen 11:35

    is a really tough one. And people do make presumptions over the sound of your voice to what you look like whether you, unfortunately, whether we want them to or not. And not everybody will sound like their voice over if, particularly if you're doing accents, characters and stuff. I can't imagine anybody that, you know, I'm gonna hope that nobody that voices ghouls and goblins looks like a ghoul or I'm presuming not, you know, it's not always possible to have a perfect representation of your talent, you've got to let your voice your demos do do that work? Yeah, I think if people are specifically looking for that kind of thing for someone, and they're looking for some particular either heritage background accent, whether they're looking for native or ability to do more than one kind of language, then absolutely. Put it on the website, you're more likely to fill those searches and things. But I'd hope I'm sure it's not. But I'd hoped that people wouldn't judge people too much just by the way that they look. But I guess, unfortunately, they do.

    Jo Troy 12:43

    What's your personal preference? Like what is good branding, voiceover branding for you like what I know, obviously, you're going to work. You know, each VoiceOver is going to be different. And you're going to tailor your, your branding to that person, but what is your personal preference?

    Helen 12:58

    It's whatever works for them. I mean, if they're happy, if an individual is happy, and feel so at ease, with whatever we the brand is that they come up with. That's the right one. It is, as you say, it's different for everybody. I think, if you are really uncomfortable showing your face, then maybe you just have one picture on your contact page, or profile picture on some of the socials that that that's enough, it doesn't as I say it doesn't have to be everywhere. And again, with the language that you use on your website, and and in your marketing, when you use socials when you're emailing people, if it doesn't feel natural for you to be very happy and very kind of straight and very business like another Don't be because they're gonna quite probably have a shock when you get in the studio and you're not like that. You and yeah, I mean, if you are much more laid backwards, certainly our newsletter and emails isn't it is different for us as a business. There's, you know, working with voiceovers as opposed to with corporate businesses and stuff like that is slightly different. But people know what they're gonna get from us. We don't try and hide our personality. You know, if you're, if you're this is always a controversial one. If you're going to swear, then do it everywhere. Don't just do it in one place, or if you're not going to do it, do it consistently as long as it's consistent. Can we get to write the rules on that? I was just gonna say please don't open an email with a massive load of swear words. Just because this of this there I liked. It doesn't work for people. You also know who you're talking to is. Yeah. Well,

    Jo Troy 14:44

    let me see can I get this Okay, so, I have asked some I've asked some other voice overs to send you some questions. So I'm going to play the first one. And hopefully you have the answers. My name is is Lucas keen?

    Lucas 15:02

    If I could speak to a branding specialist, I would ask them how I can sell my niche. And my my USP as a voiceover whilst not disqualifying myself from other genres, I asked how I could do this consistently in language and sort of how I, I brand myself across multiple platforms. Whoa,

    Helen 15:25

    Okey dokey. So how to sell your niche, but not let yourself kind of last? They might not like this answer. That's almost trying to do two things. And I don't know, I, I don't necessarily agree with the kind of stick to one kind of genre of work. And only that. For me, personally, if I did that, I'd go insane. I get I just, I like variety. And I enjoy that. And I think sometimes if that's your thing, then great, do do all the things, it's that's absolutely fine. For branding, if you don't, if you don't brand, what you do you brand, how you do it. Ultimately, what you're selling, whether that be a voice or a car, doesn't matter, is that bits sort of irrelevant. What matters is, is working with you and the the kind of benefits that you give, regardless of what that actual thing that you're giving is, does that make sense. So it doesn't really matter what the end service or product is, it's the kind of combination of skills or be people will want to work with you effectively. And that's, that's the bit, that's the bit that makes you impossible to replicate. If people want to work with you, as an individual, there is no one with any will in the world that could ever be exactly the same. In which case arrived, you've got a perfect, you know, if you find your client that's willing to, you know, it's as I'm sure other people have had that experience, and I know brands, big brands and the likes of Apple and Adidas and all the rest of it, get it as much as the smaller companies, you get people really strongly affiliated because they just like the way you do it. Apple Don't you know, they sell computers at the end of the day. I mean, boring. But it's the way that they do it, that people get bought into it. And it's their ethos and their and their kind of attitude and an ethics which equally puts people off as well as on. I mean, it's it's it's that package. So if you concentrate on that stuff, doesn't really matter whether you're doing one type of vO or 20.

    Jo Troy 17:37

    So it'd be nice. It's not what you do is the way that you do it.

    Helen 17:41

    Yeah, for want of a phrase that would have been. Yeah, thanks, Joe. Voice, everybody would be bored to death of me. last hours,

    Jo Troy 17:58

    because I think I think I had that same mind set, you know, months ago, when I wanted to change my website. And I wanted to specialise in this and this and this. But then, you know, yeah, it's like what you said, it doesn't make sense. Because ultimately, you're not going, you're not applying for jobs, people are coming to you. So they don't want to see what you do. They want to see what you're capable of doing, you know, what, what is the world of Joe? What does it consist of? And what can what can we use in this world to execute our goal to basically so, you know, that's basically what I learned early.

    Helen 18:38

    Yeah. And hopefully enjoy the process of working with you. And that's a massive one. Don't underestimate how important people actually just getting along with you is, we're all different. And we're not always going to get on with everybody. And that is absolutely fine. And, you know, aim to work with the people who get you who you've got common interests in that, understand your ways of working, and then the whole process for everybody. Both the voiceover and the client is so much more fun, and the end product will be a lot better. as well.

    Jo Troy 19:12

    Yeah, definitely. Okay, I have another question.

    Alix 19:16

    Hello, I'm Alex Perry. What is the timeline of your brand? How often should you be updating it to keep it fresh, but also not lose what you've created in the first place?

    Helen 19:31

    Oh, some big questions. Why me? What timeline you have your brand I love the way she's put that. I would say it evolves to a certain extent. I'm going to use our brand for beatable ease as an example because it's obviously you know, I hope that I know it fairly well. Something must have long if I don't. So when we when Rob and I started working together, we were actually separate sole traders, we didn't work together, we had separate branding. So when we started working together, we kind of needed to create a visual look that made sense to both sets of clients. So that changed. And in the last four years, as much as the visual stuff has changed a little bit, some of it's become a bit more, I got bored of using a small colour palette, so I added in some more brightness stuff, basically. So it's evolved in terms of that. But again, if you're branding, the kind of the personality, the field, the way that you work, that has never changed the way that we deal with clients and the stuff that we believe our ethos, our values are exactly the same as they were when we were working separately. So it's a mix of both, I think it's you, the more you do it, that I mean, obviously, when you kind of launch a business, you go into it. Particularly as creative, it's really difficult. Those first few years are hard work. And I don't think anybody that's going to voice over any creative industry would pretend that it's not really, really hard, exhausting. And you learn so much during that time, and it's part of the part of it is becoming comfortable with it. So yeah, bits of branding will naturally evolve and change, I wouldn't necessarily say in terms of if you went to someone to get branding, or when want to work on someone with branding, I would suggest that process, you shouldn't really be looking to do more than once every five to 10 years. I think if you have to do it more regularly than that either. The first time you did it, something wasn't right. Potentially, if something wasn't right, or you've had such a change in what you do, and how you do it, then again, it just doesn't fit. And I think that's part of it. If you if you get down five years down the line and what your your brandings is still working for you then great, why why change something that's just checking with it every so often? Yeah, there's elements of your brand that you would need. So it's like photography that that needs updating more regularly. Hopefully, you need to look like who you are. But um, yeah, so does that answer.

    Jo Troy 22:23

    I think I changed. So I've been doing voiceover now professionally for two and a bit years. And I change. I've had two websites, two sets of brands since then. But the reason I changed it is because in the beginning, I didn't have any assets. I didn't have anything. So I literally just flew I had a wall. And that was my branding. You know, that was it. So over. Yeah, exactly. And over time, you, you know, you get more work, you get more expertise, you get more just knowledge and you know, then you find yourself and then you're like, Okay, this is me. And that's when I felt it was time to update everything. And how long am I going to have this branding, I hope for the foreseeable future. But who knows?

    Helen 23:15

    Yeah, I would agree. I mean, when it comes to updating the website that I mean, I'm always tinkering. always tinkering with ours, that that to me isn't necessarily brand new. For me, yeah. But yeah, you know, you and I get like you say, you know, if you start off working in one genre, and you get experience in that, then yeah, things things change, things happen. It's a journey, and you the brand should be able to follow you with it. I think. I think that's one of the reasons why if I'm working with someone, I don't brand, the voice and how the voice sounds, because that changes. And it is impossible to dip if you do characters, because there's already a multitude of different voices that you have. So if you're brand new, that's much less likely to drastically change and therefore, any branding and imagery and styling that goes with that will will naturally shift at the same time.

    Jo Troy 24:17

    That was a hot take from Helen be. Okay, I have one more question.

    Sally 24:27

    Hi, Joe. I'm Sally Vanderpump. How can I ensure that my branding continues to reflect my brand as it grows and evolves?

    Helen 24:36

    I think some of that was answered in the last one. Yeah, I

    Jo Troy 24:39

    think actually you did.

    Helen 24:40

    being attuned to who you are and what you want to do. As I say, it's not about really the end thing, the end voice product or service that you're offering. It's it's much more about who you want to work with and why you want to work with them. And also why you do what you do your story, your background, your history, your experiences, influence your skill set. So if you're, if you a voiceover who's come say, from an acting background, those more character for reads audiobooks, is stuff that's potentially involving physical bits of you as well, in terms of maybe on screen stuff or stuff like that is going to probably come a lot more naturally to you, than somebody that's not had that background on stage or presenting whatever it is. And again, if you kind of, you know, you kind of get in a good relationship with, say, a client, and they say, Hey, by the way, we're doing this event, and we could do with somebody doing the voice of God stuff, you work for it. And you've never done it before. And you kind of go, Well, we got a good relationship, why, why not? Let's give it a go. And then you suddenly desert discover this kind of passion and love it, and then go for it and move in that direction and enjoy it. And I think, I think the key is to be in joying yourself, if it feels icky, and it feels like something feels stuck, or something feels forced and unnatural to you. Then assess why you whatever it is that you're doing, why you're doing it, I think, yeah, I think, as I say, the brand should evolve with you and your, your business. But if it's the branding is built around who you are. That's probably not going to shift a huge amount. Probably.

    Jo Troy 26:40

    If somebody was to you know, they wanted to reach out to you, and there were no, you know, they just started out or that they want to have a refresher, Brandon, whatever it may be. What is the process that you would take them through? From start to finish?

    Helen 26:59

    Okay, so I think I said earlier that the branding bit, and the one of the big misconceptions is, is that branding is all about the visual side of stuff. And it really, really isn't. That is kind of the last part of my branding process. And not everybody that does branding does that visual part of it. And again, that is absolutely fine. So I work with people, there's my process of the there's a big long questionnaire, which is kind of a bit infamous, now I have past clients who kind of love it and equally hate it, because it's, it is very in depth. And the way that I work with people is I really need to get to know who the person who's behind the voice. As I say, it's all about what matters to them, the kind of stuff that really gets them excited, whether that be the type of voice work that they do, or just stuff away from work as well, we are you know, we're not just born to work all the time, you know that our interests are as important. If somebody is, you know, wildly passionate about I don't know, well, for roses, the wildlife thing, and that very much is kind of weaving its way through our business, and then the people and the charities that we support. So there's a lot of in depth kind of questions and working out what those values are. And then it's kind of adding stuff on to those to kind of represent that eventually, visually. So I guess the best way of explaining it is if you are somebody that is really bright and lively and quite energetic, a branding that's quite subdued in colour palette would clash with that feel of the values and the kind of energy that you have. So he's working out the visual side of stuff that best represents the values and the personality of the person. That's, that's kind of there already. So yeah, it's kind of, there's a lot to frame, there's lots of mood boards involved. It's lots of, there's an awful lot of words. As I say, we don't get to the visual side of stuff until probably about the first third of the project. It's just all kind of words that represent and stuff like that. And then you kind of slowly start kind of representing that through photography or pattern or colour. And then eventually on to the logo and the logo is by far like the bit right at the end. It's the bit that everybody sees, but it's the bit that so tacked on at the end. I say tacked on there is thought and process that goes into obviously, but it's it's very much the endpoint by the time you get to that point. It's It's almost kind of is fairly obvious what it should be. Yes, you already know so much about what works and what doesn't with that person for how they want to be represented by that point. Yeah, so it's quite a it's quite a long process. I mean, it can, it can take anywhere between three In six, seven months, depending on USPS, I mean, again, different people work at different speeds different. Some brand designers will will kind of crack through and work in a six week chunk. I don't do that, but partly because I work with voiceovers and I know how unpredictable voicing can be. If somebody lands is six week roll, where they have to be elsewhere and away from home, I'm not gonna say, Oh, well, I'm sorry. But we've got this brand new thing that we need to do. You know, you need to answer these questions. It's just like, No, get out of it do do your job. That's always the most important they don't work very much. It's very flexible. Yeah, exactly. I mean, let's face it, that's what we're all doing. Exactly. I'm not gonna, and I get that these jobs can land within minutes notice sometimes. So? Yeah, it's a very, it's, it's, and sometimes you just need some thinking time. And I know that sounds a bit, potentially 20. But things just need to sit in your head sometimes for a few days or a couple of weeks. And you just need to get used to living with it and feeling it and thinking, Is it right, is it not? And it's it's difficult when you're talking about people's emotional responses to things because it's not always easy to explain what isn't right, even to yourself. So it's allowing that kind of process to happen as well. So yeah, sometimes it's quick, sometimes it's not. And there's no right or wrong with that. It's a Yeah, I mean, if anybody is like kind of interested, there's loads of, we've written loads of blogs, where me and Rob So there's loads of stuff about audio production and studio setup and stuff like that as well about branding websites and stuff like that to kind of get people started. So I think there is very much a process that you can go through without having to invest 1000s into it or you don't you know, I would never suggest that branding is with someone like myself is right for everybody. It isn't there is very, very much stuff that you can do on your own off your own back. Yeah, and if that works for you, then great sometimes it's helpful to do it with someone else. Sometimes it's not.

    Jo Troy 32:19

    So what have I learned from today's conversation? Focus on branding you. You may think colours, logos and cool websites have a be all and end all. Clients do not care about this. Remember, you are an actor and have to play different roles and evoke different emotions. So show your range and don't pigeonhole yourself in one niche. Unless that is all he wants to show personality. What makes you different? Focus on what you can do and not what you want. Brands change. So don't force Be true to yourself. Be comfortable, and keep it up to date.

    Jo Troy 33:06

    Bank used Helen B and only the contributors to this episode. Remember you could find Helens info as well as everyone else's in finance app. Please remember to leave a review. Right. Now my time is up for another week, signing up. Until the next episode. Bye

  • Jo Troy 0:06

    Happy New year voices, My name is Joe each way and I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceovers audio adventure podcast, a bi weekly show where I learn about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all of the stories, tips and tricks along the way. It's the new year, new year yes, that time of year where we have a battery in our backs feeling motivated, ambitious, you say. That time of year where we set new goals attempt to turn over new leaves and become a better more improved version of ourselves. We started the gym we meditate we get a calendar to get ourselves in order. For some is a game changer. But for most, it lasts for a few weeks or months, life kicks in and first obstacles in our path that will hopefully make us and not break us. But how do we prevent the latter from happening? In this quick episode. Today, I want to provide you with some suggestions and resources to help you if you ever feel stuck, or lost. Today's adventure is about career goals and wellbeing. I wasn't sure if I should do this episode is this is something that is very different for everybody. But when I thought something like this would have made me feel not so alone and put me at ease. I've always been wanting to plan small and stick to two or three goals per year as a way to get over the holiday slump and give myself focus. Write it down on January 1, I look back at the end of the year to see how I got on like a kind of prediction. I always find myself achieving more than I expected. I sometimes I'll just forget what I wrote at the beginning of the year when I go back to at the end of the year, which is always fun. Last year, Bo, I decided to switch it up a little bit. I split my goals into different categories life, music, voiceover and money. In the beginning, I thought this would be a good way to break my goals down and give myself clarity. But I found that after a couple months, I wasn't even checking the list and going off of mental notes that I would make basically reverting back to my old method. I wasn't being specific with my goals. And because of this was losing focus at times. The thing I've learned is not to be bound to goals or achievements as much as you can use them as a guide. But goals will change throughout the year. And that's fine. This example is relevant to be of course, but what if this doesn't resonate with you, and you would like to hear some other alternatives? Well, as always, I have fought ahead and got some tips from two buddies of mine, Leah and Nick from Bevere social to talk about what they do, and some tools you could possibly use to achieving your goals. Hi, hi, my name is Lea.

    Nic & Leah 3:25

    Excited. And my name is Nick. And we are the voiceover so social. So we've been making a podcast called The voiceover social for about seven years. And we also as it happens, make a planet called Voiceover career plan is all about taking everything that we've learned from our incredibly successful success putting it into a book so that people can do what we did, and do even more things that we also happen to know from other research that we've done into all different types of brilliant planning techniques to make their careers a success, too. And so Joe has asked us to bring to you our top three tips for planning your goals and making a gosh darn success of yourself. So Nick, what are our three going to be? Should we say them upfront?

    Yeah, let's say them upfront then to tease them and then explain them. Okay, great. And then closing some brilliant way. Looking forward. Okay, so the three are in at number three, think big and work back.

    Unknown Speaker 4:16

    Yes. Sounds like too, but it's not it's coming

    Nic & Leah 4:18

    in at number two stop confusing thing is be specific. And finally in there at number one, buy a second planner, just buy

    a planet by go into more detail as to what that actually means in just a moment. So think big and went back, say faster. It's just one thing, think big and look back. What is that mean? What does it mean?

    Like don't be scared to stick the goal on a piece of paper, it can be really daunting to go I want to work for X client or I would like to earn enough to buy this piece of equipment, but you have to write it down psychologically and emotionally and mentally that's you committing yourself more intensely to that goal. So you have to write it down. Do you want to talk about working back?

    Yes. And I also want to say that thing big specifically kind of means like, you can be ambitious, don't be afraid to be ambitious like, make those big dreams happen. But working back means you have to be able to track a path to get there. So it's all very well saying, I want to live in a castle in the clouds. But if you can't work out how you're going to get up to those clouds in the first place, then a castle isn't gonna happen. So working back, for example, that means if you want to, for example, like I maybe happen to have done and wants to book more work in radio drama, then my working backwards was things like get an agent, get an acting agent that is get the attention of the agent put on a plane, I've written myself to get the attention of the agent, write the play in the first place that's working backwards to something that then becomes achievable little achievable steps that get you all the way to where you want to be. little teeny

    tiny steps that you can tap dance along. Yeah, until you meet your goal. Okay, number two, then yes, please. Berserker specific.

    Unknown Speaker 5:57

    Yes. So what does that mean to you, Nick?

    Nic & Leah 5:59

    It means your goal has to be really, really detailed, and really drill down and exactly what it is you want. So just rocking up and going, Oh, want to be a voice actor? is not specific enough a goal? What kind of genre do you want to work in? Do you want to work from home? On your own solo? Or do you want to have an agent and be going into fancy studios and Soho? Do you want to work primarily in your area and stay local? Or do you want like an international career, there's loads of different ways you can be specific and hone that goal down. So it becomes much more achievable on manager.

    Exactly. If you know what you want, there's more chance you're going to get it. And then tip number three, the most important tip of all, or tips is get yourself planner, get yourself a planner, I got a lot of guys that I was saying earlier on externalise those thoughts. So it means that you can write down outside of your own head, what it is that you want, and you can look at it every day. And you can really see for yourself the progress that you make. We have designed the voiceover career planning very specifically for voiceovers in association with voiceovers we've got feedback from nearly 100, working voiceovers to make sure that it was the most useful and efficient way of doing it that it could possibly be. And now it's available to buy in a shop online.

    Unknown Speaker 7:11

    Yeah, so get one.

    Nic & Leah 7:12

    Yeah, just get one get one it'll probably change everything. It certainly has for lots of people, we get lots of people emailing us and messaging on LinkedIn or messaging us on Instagram, it's saying that it has genuinely made a huge difference to not only how they feel about achieving their goals, and that when they feel like they can get there, but also in a very practical sense, actually getting there making it work like Joe like Jo Troy himself. He used the planner, look at him now. Let's

    get cast. So just Google us the voiceover career planner, and you'll find that easy.

    Unknown Speaker 7:41

    Yeah, with average ACT.

    Unknown Speaker 7:42

    All right. Well, I'm off. My next goal is make a cup of tea.

    Nic & Leah 7:45

    Oh, wow. aspirational. My next goal is maybe clean the bath. I prefer

    Jo Troy 7:49

    my life right now. Thanks for having us. Joe. freelances. More specifically, voiceovers tend to work alone. And because of this find ourselves comparing other people's achievements to Wyvern, especially on social media. I'm not gonna get into the whole social media is bad for you talk, because we all know the pros and cons by now. But what I'm saying is that this can have a real negative effect on us being quote unquote successful. When we have quiet periods we panic imposter syndrome kicks in, so we decided to do yet another course. And I'm still wondering why I haven't been called for more roles. I've auditioned for these legitimate occurrences back to myself included has and yes, I do kind of get past it. But there's always that little voice whispering over your shoulder putting doubt in your head. So when this happens, how do we deal with this and not let it get in the way of our goals? I felt actually having conversations with people helps with risks in your work community or, or just people who care about you. Be as transparent as you feel comfortable with. Arrange meetups, zooms, WhatsApp groups, anything you can think of. You'll soon realise you're not alone. And we all go through the same emotions. And for those who have been able to navigate through them, they can help us when you are feeling low and or overwhelmed, forever little things you can do to help you to get back to where you want to be. I feel motivated. Over I would like to dedicate a whole episode to well being and mindfulness. I thought this would be a great entry. I reached out to mindfulness consultants, award winning voice actor and friend Oh boy spoon face power to give some quick tips you could use straight away in a time of need. Hopefully this can help.

    Elroy 9:47

    ticket away sir. Hi, I'm Elroy spoon face Powell spoon the voice guy otherwise known as the affirmation coach. So here are three tips for dealing with anxiety, self doubt or stressful moment. And of course, there are things we can do short, medium or long term. Here's my approach, create consistency with a mindfulness routine. So before you go to bed, or when you wake up in the morning, 30 seconds, silence 30 seconds, being honest about what you're feeling, and 30 seconds creating an affirmation. An affirmation is simply a positive statement that can either lift your spirits or plant seeds that lead you towards a positive action. A really important one that you can explore is, I can love trust, and accept myself. As some of you will find challenges with that. And it's that feeling that it's important to become aware of, and behind the bow, and accept, we're often told to ignore those feelings, awareness, acceptance, action, this is what underpins all of this. The second thing is a full body contraction. So take a big deep breath in for three, hold for three, and then let go for six. Another really powerful tool is gratitude. And not just being grateful, and recognising what you're grateful for, but reliving the feeling so close your eyes, take a deep breath and release. And then allow yourself to think about all of the things people places, experiences, skills, everything that makes you feel lifted, strong, empowered, capable, and where you feel it, the tingles up your body, the warm fuzzies, the smiles, the heat around your crown, all of that reliving. What do you notice?

    Jo Troy 11:50

    Thank you Elroy for those quick tips. No fluff straight to the point. Okay, so I think that's it. I think I have all the resources, it is enough for us. I need to stop this you're off on a good note and hopefully keep it going. Now, some of you may be wondering, what is my goal is to forget, well, first, I don't want to make this episode any longer than it needs to be a secondly, because it was delicious. So if you really want to know, feel free to drop me a message and I may give you a hit. Thank you to Nick, Leah and elsewhere for taking time to share their expertise. Remember, you can find everyone's info, links and resources, below in the shownotes. I hope these suggestions have been useful sparked ideas or simply to skipping you some enjoy. Life always throws so many stressors our way that we have to deal with on a day to day, but just remember, you have one of the best jobs in the world. See you next time.

    Jo Troy 12:52

    Bye

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi-award-winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi-weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Marketing The action of business or promoting or selling products or services, including market research and advertising. without people knowing that something exists then how would someone find you? Who do I contact and how today's adventure is delving into the world of voiceover marketing? I'm fully aware about the subject of marketing is very complex and includes many other topics such as social media, search engine optimization, etc. But I'm going to save that for another day. I'm going to focus mainly on outbound marketing, how you should market your product in general things to consider who you should market to where and how marketing in the early stages of your journey should be at the forefront of your daily tasks, as the whole reason you're doing it is to get more work and meet other voiceovers. I focus on LinkedIn to network and grow my client base and Instagram, Twitter, etc. To keep up to date with what Berg vo community is doing. My process in essence is fine production companies, advertising agencies, creative agencies and VR agencies. Tell them a little about me what I do, what I've done and why I can offer and wait for reply. If I get one great, if not, Vincent, never mind that periodically. This process never stops. In theory, it sounds easy, but in practice, it can seem like chasing your tail. Works smarter, not harder. And consistency is key. Let's see what some other videos do.

    Camille 2:08

    Hey guys, this is Camille from voiced by Camille, how long have you been a vo I've been in the industry now for about six months, I'm still a baby. But when it comes to marketing, I knew that I'm going to have to have some type of plan or strategy so that I can consistently find what method of marketing and or platform brings you the best results work currently is cold email marketing. And I've kept it really basic in regards to who I've been reaching out to because I'm still quite fresh. So I'm just at a stage where I'm still learning and growing, improving, and just focused on collecting useful techniques so that when I do start marketing myself properly, my ability and skills are the best they can be. Imagine I'm out here trying to promote my voice and expertise. And it's all poor quality like that is dead. Because it won't actually matter how much marketing I do, I won't succeed. I've had to get really comfortable with cold emailing because I've realised if I want to have a long career, I'm gonna have to find my own work by whatever channels are available to me. I mean, what's the worst that can happen? What they just don't get back to me. But you know, I'm going to keep trying. And so that's what I've been doing. And it's been working. What do you find most challenging or dislike about marketing, having to put myself out there makes me feel really vulnerable. And the idea of having to sell my voice as a business still irks me. But I had to really check my mindset and stop looking at it like I'm selling because I'm not a natural salesperson. But I'm me, and I can do me. So that's what I do. I maintain professionalism. And I'm always polite. But I show my personality. Because I have to have fun with this. If I'm not having fun that I just don't see the point in doing it. And I might as well give up. And that is definitely not an option.

    Kelly 4:01

    I'm Kelly McBride. I've been a voiceover artist full time since around mid 2021. So I still consider myself somewhat of a newbie. So I don't have one particular platform or method of marketing that works best for me. I think when you're a newbie or whether you're an established voiceover, you should always be testing and learning what works well for you. And essentially planting your seeds far and wide. To see what grows. I like to sort of think of it as an exercise in figuring out where your audience likes to hang out, and how they like to be communicated with. You know, you wouldn't necessarily use the same tactics for contacting a gaming developer as you would for reaching out to an Instructional Designer for eLearning, for example. So I will always tailor my approach. I will always research a company or an individual in advance to see how and where they're most active online so that you know, I can come prepared. So whether that's striking up a conversation on LinkedIn, if I see that they use that platform a lot if they post Still a lot, or Instagram, if they post a lot of their content there, or just good ol email marketing, I've had a lot of success with that just going directly, especially with freelancers like animators or sound designers, they love emails. Why, at least in my experience, so yeah, ultimately, I think it's an exercise in testing and learning what works for you. I think the most challenging aspect of marketing for me is being consistent with it over time and doing it every single day. Working in advertising, you learn that the companies that have the most success have an always on strategy across different channels. And that means that they're constantly at the top of a consumers mind, so that when a consumer is ready to buy that product, they immediately think of that particular brand. And it's the same when you run your own business. I think that in order to grow my business, I should be marketing myself in some way big or small, every single day, just to put myself in front of potential voice buyers. But it can be hard, like when you've actually got to do the work itself, when you're auditioning. Or when you just have other priorities in life, you know, I have a toddler that takes up a lot of my time and energy. So I think that pressure to be constantly on is a big challenge. And also just figuring out what to say. But again, it's a question of testing and learning what sort of content resonates with your audience, and what you like to create. And I suppose that the more you sharpen that tool, whether it's writing blogs are creating videos, the easier it gets, and the less of a chore it is. So that's what I'm trying to do more instead of labouring over the idea of it too much.

    Jo Troy 6:41

    As always, I want to get in the mind of an expert and ask questions, I reached out to a friend of mine, award winning voice over Chris Testa to have a little chat. Even though I know he won't call himself an expert. I definitely used a lot of his online resources and courses early in my career, which has helped me immensely and have adapted over time, we spoke about what you need in order to start marketing, how to construct marketing emails, who to contact, why people hate marketing, and more.

    Chris 7:20

    How are you sir? I'm good. I'm alright, just kind of like chugging along, really, I suppose as we all as we all kind of, like do now that Autumn is properly here. So not at all panicking about, you know, end of year goals, if you want to talk voice over stuff.

    Jo Troy 7:39

    So the reason why I wanted to speak with you today, when I first started actually used a lot of your marketing resources that you would post on Instagram, Skillshare, etc. And I find them very useful. And even though you may not consider yourself to be an expert, because I know you're very humble man you are. I definitely consider you as, you know, one of the voice overs out there at least in in my world on my radar that consistently puts out marketing and educational content. But you know, no to myself, I'm useful, but people that I speak to find useful. So I wanted to, you know, just talk about marketing, you know, from a very ground level, I know you have a lot of resources out there. So I will point people in your direction. You know, after to talk about I'm just to touch base on some questions that I have that other people have asked me to ask. So yeah. How does that sound? Yeah, no,

    Chris 8:38

    of course. I mean, I mean, that sounds terrible. There's no way thanks very much Joe, for the opportunity. And I hope you have a great week interview you go or don't of course, ya know, whatever specific questions that you have. There's a lot of stuff that's pre existing kind of out there. So I don't want to repeat myself and kind of like bore people, but if there's anything kind of like specific that you want to ask, go ahead and shoot.

    Jo Troy 9:02

    Um, so would you like to introduce yourself and how long you've been doing via? Yeah, sure.

    Chris 9:08

    I mean, so I've been full time in voiceover since 2017. Ma the bar was very low for me to go into full time though, because I was just like a jobbing voice actor. I'm sorry, a jobbing actor, but beforehand and I other than that, my resting work my my non actor work was all 00 hour contract stuff. So it really didn't take much for me to go. Oh, okay. As soon as I got a bit of momentum with VoiceOver, uh, you know, yeah, well, I'll leave the box office job on the front of house job because it offered minimal security anyway. So within like six months of starting to have a kind of like a home studio of some kind of sorts. I was able to kind of like transition over and focus on it being kind of like full time, and I suppose kind of like looking at the marketing side of things. The first thing that I did If you try everything and you see what sticks, you throw everything at the wall and you see what sticks whether or not you, you know, it's good or bad or indifferent, or whatever. So I signed up to pay to plays, I signed up to freelancing sites such as Fiverr, and up work, I then started to do kind of like direct email marketing as well, because everyone told me that you needed to do that I got on social media and kind of started to change my brand, I created a website, which was specifically for voiceover rather than just my acting website, all of these kinds of things. And then at various different stages, they either took off, or they didn't say the very first job that I got working from home was from a pay to play site that was from I think, voice 123. The most sustained consistent income that I had, certainly for the first three years was Fiverr. And then, the direct marketing kinds of stuff was a real kind of like slow burn, but has kind of like I'm starting to reap the benefits of that more and more and more. And the fact that I own those contacts, because I'm reaching out to them, I'm not dependent on anything. And then this year, specifically as well, the other things have been SEO. And I'm starting to see more people just organically finding me, which is good. And yeah, content creation, generally, generally speaking, and finding out different platforms, what platforms work for me, what makes sense, what doesn't make sense. And so if you've you, if you've followed me on Instagram, for example, you'll see that I have tried a variety of different things, a lot of which hasn't worked at all. But then I've kind of like taken them and kind of modelled them on different things. So I'm kind of, I'm at a stage now where it's kind of like, yeah, I've I've kind of done some hard graft into it. I naturally, because I'm still spending a lot of time doing the marketing side of things. I want to try and make the marketing as creative and enjoyable as possible as well. And because I've got that that client base already kind of established now, I feel as if I have the time to kind of take the risk to experiment. Whereas if I was like, No, I'm, I'm living hand to mouth. I couldn't I couldn't do that in the same way.

    Jo Troy 12:09

    I saw a post your quote the other day on Instagram talking about it, it covered a few bullet points, but one of them that stood out to me was, is it too early for me to start marketing? When is a good time to start? And what do you need in order to start marketing?

    Chris 12:28

    I mean, a set up that is consistent, I think is the main thing. I mean, I think we all know that we're all gonna get shit scared the first time we're booked for a job. Yeah, from our home studio or our setups or anything. And that to be honest that that feeling never goes away, because it just it changed into something different. Because you know, the imposter syndrome is very good in terms of like finding what your next weakness is. So you might do 100 directed sessions from from home and think that that means that you're now comfortable in doing it, but there's always going to be that voice going like, yeah, you're gonna fuck it up, and the internet's gonna die and your computer's going to explode, your new interface is going to set on fire, and your microphone suddenly going to start working all of those things. So it never stops. It never ends. But I think you know, consistency, I think is almost as important as quality. Because if something is bad, but solvable, or at least consistent, that's much better than kind of going, Oh, you sound fine. Oh, now it's sounding completely different, because you're recording in a different room with a different. So I think having that. But then really, I think we always find it a different excuses for not getting started on the marketing, like our marketing is not good enough. And we're not ready and our demos aren't good enough. And we're not good enough. And the website isn't ready yet. And all of these kinds of things. And natural facts you've got. I mean, first of all, you've got to acknowledge that no one cares. No one cares. No one cares, apart from your mum. So that so there's that aspect. And then the other aspect is that you only get better by consistently doing it. Yeah. And that means actually putting stuff out there. Hopefully through practice, and through working via trial and error, what works and what doesn't work. Yeah, to a certain degree, you can see what other people are doing and learn from them. But it might not work for you in the same way. Because although, you know, as voice actors, we're all doing a lot of the same kind of kind of thing. We're all different products out there. We all have different skill sets, different personalities, different markets as a result. And so therefore, if I try and copy just copy what someone else is kind of doing, expecting that I'll get the same results, I'll almost certainly kind of like full on my ass. So I'm all for kind of like copying everybody and seeing trying things on seeing how it works, whether or not I enjoy it, whether or not I get results from it. And that requires some bravery to kind of test for some sustained period of time, rather than you know, adopting a kind of one and done type of attitude. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, there's gonna be There's going to be quite a bit of failure there as well.

    Jo Troy 15:02

    Why do you think people don't like the marketer side of things, we'll find it difficult.

    Chris 15:08

    It's not the reason why we started getting in voiceover isn't necessarily I mean, whether or not you got in voiceover for the money, or because you enjoyed it, or you know, and you always did, like crazy voices or whatever, or you aspire to work with certain brands, or certain people, or certain creative directors, or whatever, I think very few people would be like, I just love sending emails, I just really like setting up a website. I really like paying over the odds for a voiceover demo that no one listens to, you know, all of that, you know, I really love, you know, all of the different aspects to social media, you know, endlessly scrolling and comparing myself to other people who I'll never meet, you know, and chastising myself as not being as apparently successful as they are, you know, all of you, there are many reasons why not, not, that's one to kind of, like, even get started on that in many kinds of ways. Because what we want to be is, you know, behind the mic, doing the stuff, doing the work that we kind of like care and are passionate about, or being, you know, clapped on the back for having hopefully done a good job or not suck anything up in any kind of way, shape, or form. So it's difficult, and it's hard. And in that respect, I don't think anybody wants to go, like, look at me kind of consistently, but it is the nature of the beast. And I think the other thing is, it's that fear of missing out a fear of like, well, if I do commit time, and stuffed to doing one particular thing, what if I don't get results? What if I'm doing the wrong thing? You're what am I? What if I'm wasting time, so that means we don't post on social media, or we don't send those emails or whatever, because we're not 100% convinced? Because there's always someone out there saying, No, the best way to you know, engage in get voiceover work in 2022, is go on tick tock or start Instagram reels or, you know, get on LinkedIn or, you know, buy Sales Navigator, or whatever. So, so you go like, well, do I commit to the email kind of thing now? Or do I commit to cold calling now or whatever, you're so overwhelmed by all of the information, he just remained static, and you don't do anything? And I mean, I, I'm aware of that, because, you know, almost six years down the road, I'm still subject to it myself and be very free and kind of like open about, and how would

    Jo Troy 17:24

    you, you know, if you're going down to direct marketing and emailing people, I know you do touch upon this in your Skill Share course, but how do you construct a marketing email? What do you include? And how has that changed for you over time?

    Chris 17:41

    Okay, cool. I mean, do you do you do much direct marketing at the moment? Now, Joe, you some

    Jo Troy 17:47

    at the moment? I've been really bad with it. But I do I obviously do market direct marketing? Yes. Yeah,

    Chris 17:56

    sure. And I think, you know, it's, it's that thing about like, I think you'll, you'll feel yourself be comfortable with different things at different times. The thing is, is that, like, you know, you want to get in and get out as quickly as possible, because time is money, blah, blah, blah, you want to be respectful of that. So I have always been in a constant state of refining and getting lower and lower. So you know, trying to aim for about 150 words, you know, about a minute to a minute or half of it takes to read, knowing that people won't read it more often than not that they won't, you know, that there's the whole personalization thing, know that you're addressing the right person. And if you want to throw a compliment in there about their work to show that there's some level of engagement. Already, there's the, you know, the voice in the back of your head going like, Yeah, but all of the other voice actors are doing that. So what makes what makes that ping? What makes that different, you know, and that's certainly true, which is why my next stage how that has evolved, really, is to do with video. So, for me, I record a video here if I feel it's worth it, so that I'll have that introductory thing, but I'll say

    Jo Troy 19:05

    this to the client, or is it online?

    Chris 19:09

    It's so it's, it's to the client, but it's kind of held online. So there are various different kinds of video, you know, things where you can create something that uploads to a kind of like a private servers, okay, so you can send someone like, you can send someone a kind of a link, which is actually a gift, which is a video of yourself and saying, Hi, my name is Chris. And I really like such and such and such and such and saying it that way. So you have it is the because I'm being much more selective and you know, I try and aim to send no more than kind of like five emails a week. So one a day, essentially to something very chosen very specific that I want to reach out to, but it shows me but it's also because they hear my studio, they hear my voice without them having to press play on my demo or anything they see What kind of person that I am like whether or not you know, they would like to work with me or not for, you know, so it catalyses that decision making process. But I've also invested, you know, however much of my studio which is behind me, if they see that, and they see all of this, and I make a joke of the fact that yeah, you might as you might have guessed it, I'm a voice actor, because the microphone is front and centre, and all of that kind of stuff, because you got to be self aware from it. But you're reaching out to people who say that, you know, video and is integral to storytelling in 2022. So maybe reach out in those terms, you know, it seems like a bit of a no brainer to me. So that's how it's evolved. I mean, I don't do it all of the time, because obviously, you've got to be sensitive to your timing, you know, how long does it take, but it doesn't take me that long. Now, now that I've got the things set up, and I've got a studio to, to show off and everything else like that. But yeah, those people that don't respond, it does generally get a higher response rate. Rather than about one in 10. Responding to my emails, one in nine responding to my emails, I get about one in four, responding to a video message instead, you know, if they choose to click on it, which is, you know, the whole thing, so you still gotta make sure that it doesn't take a huge amount of time to set up and kind of like do but yeah, it's just kind of a more and more It's about kind of, it's the person this is the personal brand here. Yeah, it's the guy with the teacup and the suit, partly, but you know, it's, it's, it's this is another a different way of making yourself seem memorable. And I'm always looking for those opportunities where, okay, everybody's doing this. How can you find a way to stand out now that everybody's doing it, whilst at the same time going, like, even if everybody's doing it, and you can't think of a way of standing out differently? That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it? shouldn't do it? Yeah. And just go like normal do nothing, then. Yeah, yeah, keep doing the thing. It might have less good results as than it did 10 years ago. But they'll still get results. Yeah, so Yeah.

    Jo Troy 21:59

    Makes sense. And where would you say you get the best results? In terms of marketing your, your business?

    Chris 22:08

    So would that include things like social media? Yes, yeah. And SEO, it's a whole combination. It really varies. I mean, the figures that are easiest to track are always going to be the emails and follow ups, on emails, and all of that kind of stuff. But I have, you know, my whole thing is about trying to create more interesting ways. First and foremost of doing this, rather than just sending the emails and saying, Look at me, I think that's important. And so going into various different types of content creation is been a really useful thing to do. And I'm starting to get the whole idea of this is all outbound stuff, if we want to go really marketing speak, there's the outbound stuff, where you're actively reaching out to those people. But there are loads of people out there who might need me who I'm just unaware of, because I, you know, my lead generation can only do so much. So inbound leads inbound working, is the thing that I've been kind of like focusing on. And that's where I've started to see quite a bit of traction on LinkedIn, where it's very much a b2b business to business kind of like space, which is very much my kind of brand, really, to generalise massively, by like, so I've already seen kind of like inbound work from there. And tick tock bizarrely, has started to kind of like take off a bit as well, for kind of the kinds of work where I wouldn't know who to reach out to in the first place. So just making people aware of me in different kinds of ways. But then this all feeds into because of the fear is always kind of like all but may I'd spend all this time creating this content or not, whatever. How was it? You know, if it doesn't work, quote, unquote, am I just wasting my time, what I've what I've now kind of set up in my mind is kind of like, say, my best performing my best performing LinkedIn post for a month or a week, then goes as a blog on my website, and it feeds in my SEO to make so if you put in, you know, British male voiceover, then I'm still going to rank higher as a result of that, you know, so it's key worded, and all of that kind of thing, but it's put up there. And, and then I'll use that kind of content in different places. So maybe for a follow up email as well. You know, I could be, you know, a list of productivity tips to do specifically with videographers or something, which I did as opposed. If there's a lot of engagement on it, then that's a very justifiable follow up, which isn't just, hey, look at me, I'm another voiceover and here's another demo. You know, it's finding ways of being able to, you know, provide solutions or entertainment or some other kind of thing to be a bit more memorable than just here's this amazing explainer video that I did. Although that's obviously just as valid. It's just finding different ways around it. So, so that's it. I I'd say the core is still the direct marketing in terms of the marketing that I do that I go out there. But my focus is much more now on getting the inbound stuff in, in a, in a more kind of conscious way.

    Jo Troy 25:09

    In terms of you know, when, you know, speaking from personal experience, there's been times where I felt like I've plateaued in terms of marketing or finding new clients, how have you got over that, you know, if you felt that way, because obviously, there's times when you'll get in a lot of work, and you might get a bit lazy and not do marketing or might not have the time to do marketing, but you're still getting work. And then you're thinking to yourself, Okay, I'm gonna do some some research, look for some new clients, but then you come across the same client, the same clients, the same clients? Yep. And what do I do now?

    Chris 25:46

    Well, I mean, this is the whole reason why in all honesty, I'm I'm looking at the inbound stuff. Because it's like, you know, with however many people that are there are out there. I mean, there's part of my mind that rationally knows, like, I haven't obviously exhausted all of the clients in the world. Yeah, but you'll have approached all of the main big hitters in some way, shape, or form, the big hitters may change, you know, Giles may move to that agency, and Lisa may move to that, you know, advertising agency, and so you can try and double check that kind of stuff as much as possible. But yeah, you plug video production London, into Google, you're only gonna get certain number of kind of like results. And you know, I'm sure, you know, I certainly wouldn't want to be the person who's got the admin address for the number one result on that, because I'm sure they're absolutely fucking inundated. And then they're kind of like, oh, another voice actor, I can't wait to respond. So the inbound stuff is where I think it's more interesting, because I can be a bit more creative, I can think a bit more kind of laterally, about kind of things. And so therefore, the people that I'm not aware, might even know about voice over or need a voice over kind of come to me, I can give a very specific example, which is that there was a video game. I can't say, because I have signed an NDA, which makes me sound like a wanker. I feel bad. But I'll tell you about it. Anyway. There's a game developer that, ya know, there's a game developer who will go unnamed, who I greatly admired, kind of like growing up in terms of playing all of their games and stuff, I didn't realise that he was working on a new IP or anything else like that at all. Or even that, you know, that they were casting for anything recently. But then the writer for that project, put a post on LinkedIn. Now, I wasn't connected that person, I didn't know that that riser existed. So I didn't see the post. But because a lot of my mutual connections were connected in that kind of like way. And lots of them added me in the comments saying Chris would be perfect for this, you should consider you should see Chris Testa, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that got me I didn't even have to audition. They just like looked at my website and said, Do you want to do the thing. So I do think, and it was great. And that was but I was completely unaware, I wouldn't have not known who to have contacted, you go to that company's website, there's no reference to the person who was the contact that reached out to me, or anything. So it was you know, as far as trying to do it in an outbound kind of way, there was just no way to kind of like start with it. But because I put content out there that had demonstrated that I might not be a dick, and might be sometimes quite good at my job. Enough, people were kind of had me the dreaded phrase, top of mind, but it's there for a reason, you know, I was top of mind enough, that people kind of went like this guy, baby, because God is everywhere. And that worked. So I'm getting more instances of that kind of stuff. And that's taking off the pressure of like, I need to do lead gen. I mean, the the other thing is, obviously, is that you just, you build up a good relationship with if you're not doing the lead generation yourself, someone who has knowledge in a particular industry, and I worked with a virtual assistant who specifically had knowledge in a particular industry, and said, Could you do lead gen for this? And you can think of the titles that you should be looking for? Yeah, you know, a rather than me going, it's creative directors and Head of Production. And I don't know what every other phrase that you normally, you know, you go down your own client list and go what do they call themselves, being able to target a specific industry with an insider and go, like, who's making these decisions? And can you, you know, can you do that? So there's, I think there's two ways of going you hire someone with a kind of like a lead generation capacity, which is maybe a bit more refined, who who's working in that industry already? And maybe does it on the side? Or, and it's creating that kind of inbound stuff by going what platform do I want to be active on? What content do I want to be putting out there? How's that going to work? I've tried inbound stuff on Instagram died to death very quickly for me. So I think Instagram, it's kind of like it's a place to keep my mum updated about what I'm doing. And it's kind of like a dumping ground for all of my other kind of content, because all of the people that follow me on Instagram are the voice actors. So as long as I post about voice acting, it gets engagement, if it's anything tangential that it doesn't, and so it dies on its ass. You know, I keep that I move that tip content over to Tik Tok, or I move it over to LinkedIn does much better gets me opportunities. So it's just being mindful of those things.

    Jo Troy 30:28

    What do you wish you knew, Ben, that, you know, now,

    Chris 30:31

    I think that there's no one way, there's no one way of doing it. Everybody says, you know, this is the one thing this is the, the one way of being able to do it. And there's there is no one way. And the it is all to do with you taking responsibility for your actions and your business ultimately, that's not to say that it's, it's easy, because it really isn't, it really isn't easy. I think we kind of like forget quite how challenging it can be when you are the sole business, VO printer or whatever. So I think my main thing is kind of like what's bearable, realistically for you. Because for some people, in all reality that, you know, the concept of just sending out marketing email, after marketing email, after marketing email, and your creative person, etc, etc, etc. You don't want to do that shit. And maybe that actually sucks the love out of the whole reason that you got started in the first place. So you've got two things, you can do two options that you can do, you can either get over that and keep doing the thing. You know, Copyright Mark Scott, which is perfectly valid, and slash, or you can go like is this something that you know, works to a certain degree that you do love doing, and do 10 times that amount, because you love doing it, okay. And then through sheer quantity, as long as you know that there is a rationale behind it, you know, that you're not just screaming out into a void, but if you love doing it in a way, then then go all in in that way, rather than going, Oh, but maybe I want to do this, or maybe I want to do that. Or maybe I want to do the other thing, I'll always be kind of about like, you know, direct marketing is the easiest way to have direct relationships with clients. So if you know, a website goes down, you're not completely screwed. And that, that that's always going to be parentally, the fear of all of those of all those kinds of things, but there are different ways of doing it. And you know, I'm seeing that with results with LinkedIn and results with tick tock in the last year, I would say the last six months with ticked off the last year with LinkedIn, I mean, to be very specific, it's not like I'm drowning in jobs from inbound leads there, I probably get maybe a job every five, six weeks from LinkedIn. And I'd probably get I mean only recently as Tiktok kind of like kicked off for me, but I've had like about three jobs. And I've been at it kind of consistently for about six or seven months. So you know, in terms of the payoff, not crazy right now. But it started that's starting to pick up as well. That's not going to replace my direct marketing anytime soon. But because I'm passionate about it and putting stuff out there. It's it seems to be finding a bit more of a balance. But I mean going that there's no one way just being honest with yourself in terms of like if, if there's a particular Avenue whether or not that social media or direct marketing or something else where you're like, I just don't really want to touch it with a bargepole at the very idea of it makes me want to throw up then it's kind of like Be honest with yourself and go like okay, well what else can I get really fucking good at that I will do consistently, you know, would be would be the honest thing.

    Jo Troy 33:52

    So thank you for answering my questions, and was a big help. So thank you. That's not today. No, no,

    Chris 34:01

    no, no, no, my pleasure. I mean, hopefully, like in terms of I really I just kind of say is like keep an eye out on what other people are doing. And what what's interesting what seems to get kind of like traction out there and then learn learn from it, you know, imitate it in your own kind of terms, try it on for size, see if it if it might kind of like work and it's through that experimentation of kind of like doing that I think you can then kind of move forward and kind of make things on your own. But yeah, it's it's not the most exciting part of the job. But but in order for us to keep being able to do the job consistently, kind of got to do it in some way. So that's the only thing so yeah, people are welcome to kind of like reach out to me in that respect. You know if they have any questions and stuff no, respond when I can.

    Jo Troy 34:53

    So, what did I learn from today's conversation? Do not start out by marketing a list You can deliver a consistent reliable sound. You want to demonstrate a match or sound as this is why a client wants to work with. Direct Marketing is when you contact a potential client and offer your services to keep your direct marketing email short and to the point. What's your unique selling points in the subject line and make the client want to read more. To maximise your inbound marketing, utilise all online mediums and repurpose content with different plugs. You want to make yourself seen and be memorable. Never stop. Marketing is part and parcel of the job. And you will find yourself doing it more than not. Make sure you give yourself goals about how many clients you want to contact per day, week, or even month. Thank you Chris Testa for sharing your knowledge, answering my questions and helping make this episode possible. Remember, marketing is like an onion and has many layers to it. I only managed to scratched the surface in this episode. So if you would like to find out more, please use for the sources and links in the show notes. And feel free to reach out if you have any questions. Looks like my time is up for this week. Signing out until next episode. Bye

  • Jo Troy 0:02

    Hello voice. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning wizard and host of a voice service awards yo adventure podcast, a biweekly show where I learn about voiceover and audio industry. I share with you all of the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Okay, I have experience, I have a home set up and I want to get bigger, more lucrative jobs. I think I need an agent. Some vos have them some don't. years ago in the UK, at least, there were a handful of agents, mostly London based they were but go to places if you were in need of a voice over time and the big boom in home setups and access to more voices, verb a lot more. And I mean a lot of online boutique agencies and directories. But where do I find one? How do I approach an agent? And furthermore, do I really need one. Today's adventure is about voiceover agents. I always for agents were the be all and end all. But of course, as I've discussed in previous episodes, you can perfectly function without them and earn a living with simply a good marketing strategy, working with clients directly and being on freelance sites. For the most part, this is true, but the aim of the game is to diversify and have multiple streams of possible work. In my experience, agents get you to the so called premium work. They have access and relationships with production companies and people who you have no idea exist. Mostly the bigger jobs I've been lucky enough to be a part of, such as gaming or commercial jobs who have come by agencies. Not only do they have relationships with the clients, but can negotiate fees and terms on your behalf, which takes a lot of weight off your shoulders. As always, I want to hear what some other voiceovers think about the world of agents. Let's listen.

    Isi 2:18

    Hi, my name is Isi. I'm also known as se, the scribe, and I've been in the voice acting business for about seven or eight years now. I love agents, I feel like agents are really important. They've been integral in terms of my career and the jobs have done that I call them hand holders. Because when it comes to pricing in this business, it's a bit of a wild west so agents can really, they really understand the market. And they can get you a really good deal on particularly larger jobs. And even just for like everyday, kind of corporate narration, gigs, things like that. Agents are actually really excellent. They are great negotiators. They're great hand holders. And they've been integral in terms of kind of where I've gone in terms of the trajectory of my voice acting career.

    Jen 3:15

    Hello, Jo. My name is Jen Lawson hunts. And I've been acting on and off for a long time, and have done had done some voice over roles. But it wasn't really until about a year ago that I really threw myself into the voiceover world, if you will. So built home studio did a lot more training and just really threw myself into it and absolutely love it. So whilst I'm not new to performance, I am kind of a new voice on the voiceover scene. I don't currently have an agent, I have previously had representation for on screen theatre acting, I used to live in New Zealand and at the time, having an agent felt essential to getting roles. But since moving back to the UK and focusing more on voice acting, it doesn't feel quite as essential, I guess. It feels like you're able to find more work and opportunities yourself, you're less reliant on an agent. But it does feel like there's some elements of the voiceover world that are still kind of with agencies. So the big national international campaigns or commercials, and I'm really keen on voice voicing for video games and doing performance capture. And again, those areas of the industry do feel more through agencies, so I'm definitely keen to seek representation, but it feels more like the cherry on top rather than the absolute essential

    Jo Troy 4:47

    sounds as both reports are shared, at least the most the three of us. You can function perfectly well and booked jobs without an agent but to get to those big boy jobs. You kind of need the help of an agent For the most part, okay, so it's that time where I speak with an expert. And what better person to reach out to one of my agents. Alex Griffiths from the voiceover gallery, who I've been working with for about six months now. I wanted to ask him about his journey into agency work, how agencies work with clients, different types of agencies. And of course, the big question how you can get signed to an agency.

    Alex 5:33

    So, my name is Alex Griffiths, and I'm a voiceover agent currently with the voiceover gallery. So we're a non exclusive agency. So we work with VoiceOver artists all over the world, various different languages. And we also have studios, so have a studio in Manchester and a studio in London. And as an agency, we kind of work on a sort of end to end package or service if you like. So clients come to us, we find them the voices, and we also offer recording, editing and layback mixing all that kind of stuff.

    Jo Troy 6:06

    Okay, and how did you become an agent though, what, what brought you here today,

    Alex 6:11

    I became an agent. So I feel like quite a lot of people that are agents or working casting have this, this kind of story, this kind of route. So I was originally an actor myself. So I went to drama school and did all that. And then when I was a working actor, I did a bit of voiceover as well. And obviously, being an actor is, you know, lots of fun. And it's amazing when you've got work when you've got contracts. But then on the flip side of that, is you have these horrible, prolonged periods of time where you've just got no work. And you've got to find jobs, the you know, the dreaded day job to fill that gap. And one of my, one of my other jobs was assisting a casting director in London. So I just used to the days, the days I was available, the days I didn't have active work, I would just go and assist on various different commercial projects, and all that kind of stuff. And it got to a point where I was kind of doing more work assist in this casting director than what I was doing acting and it was just sort of a natural progression, then I just made a decision to stay to stay with the cast. And I really enjoyed that aspect of it. That side of the industry finding, finding the actors finding, finding the people, he wasn't even actors we did, I did a lot of sports casting. So when I first started out, so we literally had to find like boxes, wrestlers, figure skaters, all this kind of stuff. And I just really enjoyed that. So I kind of turned that into a full time thing. And then in about 2020, around the pandemic time, I decided to put the ads in completely to one side, and followed in in the casting agency kind of world. I worked at an ad agency for a little while, doing all that kind of casting or the in house casting for a digital ad agency. And then after that I started representing representing voices in voiceover, became the voice over agent in Shoreham today,

    Jo Troy 8:03

    and when, you know, as an agent, how do clients find you? Or how do you work with clients versus how myself would get work.

    Alex 8:15

    And it really varies, obviously, you'll have kind of clients, sort of the big, the big, massive clients who they will, they will get a custom prefer and they will send it everywhere. So you know, we will just be one of the people on their list who they're sending it out to, you know, they'll want to hear options from every agency that there is in the UK, they might even go further than the UK, depending on what it is they're looking for. So in some instances, we'll be we'll be on their lists. And there'll be a reason we're on that list, we're on their list, because they know that these are the agencies where they're, they're guaranteed to get, you know, the the top voices, the people that can deliver, they will have probably worked with all them agencies before so so they're kind of their go twos. So we'll get their cast in briefs, as well as that there are agencies who will specifically just want to work with us because we have a relationship with them. And you know, where I'm at now, of course, I've got everything, I think 18 years. So we've got clients who who have been with us for 18 years, in terms of, you know, clients that we're we're putting our voices work on. So they have a great relationship with us. So whenever they need a voiceover, they trust us, they know that we have have the goods, so to speak the voices, and they know that we can deliver what it is that they need. So that's why that's why they come to us. And then as well, obviously, we're networking as well all the time. So you know, we're at industry events where we're making, we're making contacts and meeting people kind of everywhere they go and as well, we're an agency that we don't just do kind of voiceover we do localization with your subtitling, so we we tend to get clients that might come to us say for subtitling but then realise actually we've got this whole bank of voices. So them that'd be somebody else in their office who is who is working on a new voiceover. And we get it through through them that way. So it's kind of like a snowball, a snowball effect, so to speak. But I think the main overriding thing of how we managed to, you know, how clients come to us is, is through the fact that they trust that we have a really great product, and they trust that we know what we're what we're talking about and can deliver, we can deliver them what they need, it's that personal essence, I think, as well, a lot of our clients come to us because they'd like to speak to an agent and have that relationship. And then obviously, when we cast, you know, one job, we move forward with that client, and will will likely work on another ad that they've got coming up. And of course, a lot of people in the kind of world of producing ads or not just ads, but the ration TV, a lot of them are freelancers as well. So they'll go from different companies, and they'll they'll take us with them as one of their contacts. So that's yeah, that's how that's how people come to us,

    Jo Troy 10:58

    I guess, I guess it's, you know, you guys as being the middlemen allows the client to basically sit back and allow you to do the work a finding. And arranging, you know, the recording sessions, etc. Because, you know, I've been in contact with clients who come directly to me at times, and it's kind of like, you have to repeat yourself so many times about the how things work, and what needs to be done and how the process is going to be. And then this is how we're going to record that this day. And sometimes it gets a bit confusing, because they're like, Why? Why do I need to do it like this? Why do I have to pay this? Why not to do that? And I guess, with you guys, you kind of handle it? Would you say? That's what

    Alex 11:41

    100%? Yeah, I mean, one of the key things that we try to do for our clients is just make the process as easy as possible. We just want basically them to tell us what they need. And then we deliver it. It's like you say, We are the middleman we've got our amazing bank of voices, who we speak to everyday who we have a relationship with. And then we've got the client coming to us with their needs. So we can easily draw that line to go right you need this voice. I know that this voice is only available on Wednesday afternoon. So I'm gonna now make sure that the information I'm feeding back to you as a client is, you know, it's going to be a Wednesday afternoon. And you know, I mean, it's just, it's just placing things to make it as simple as possible, rather than me going back to a client with a spreadsheet of you know, five 500 dates, pick a half hour slot in this, I can go back to them with, you know, three potential voices, three potential dates and say, let me know what works for you. And yeah, yeah, we are the middleman just trying to make things as easy as possible about the clients and for the voices as well.

    Jo Troy 12:46

    You said, you just said that the voiceover guy has been around for 18 years. And you also said that in the beginning, how the voiceover gallery are a non exclusive agency. In my experience, anyway, agencies that have normally been around for longer are normally exclusive. Why would you say some agencies have exclusive versus non exclusive? And what are the pros and cons?

    Alex 13:13

    I think you're absolutely right, I think the majority of the agencies that have been around for a longer period of time do tend to be exclusive. We weren't exclusive ourselves up until I think it's probably coming up to about two years, since we've adopted the non exclusive model. And I think there are kind of there are pros and cons to both being exclusive Ambien non exclusive. And I don't necessarily think there's a specific, overriding reason why you know, an agency or an agent would choose to be one or the other, it kind of is just whatever works for them. As an agency and what they want to do in terms of being exclusive, you tend to get more of kind of a personal management approach with an exclusive agency, they'll tend to be looking after the voice and managing your career. Whereas I would say as a non exclusive agency, we allow our voices to kind of be with as many agents as they want be on as many kind of freelance websites as they want. But in turn, we don't have such kind of control over your career and over the other jobs that you're getting, so to speak. So when we're happy for you to go out source your own work, we're happy for your other agents to obviously be looking at work for you. But obviously, we won't be having a dialogue with them other agents unless we really need to about what kind of work they're getting you. So we're we're kind of similar to a database, I guess in terms of we say, these are the jobs we've got, we want to put you on this job, you know, Are you up for it? Whereas I think with kind of the exclusive model, there is more of kind of a control and more of a management aspect of the jobs that you're putting on. They'll have more of a sense of the work you're doing collectively, if that makes sense. Personally, I think that exclusive or non exclusive agency, it's down to the whichever kind of option the voice wants to wants to work with. And likewise, if you were to be setting up an agent, sorry, an agency, it's down to kind of whatever approach you want to take, and whether you want to manage private, I think the exclusive agents is probably have less people on their books, because it's it, it can be a lot of hard work, obviously, managing individual careers. So it's whether you want to focus more on management of the individual careers, or whether you want to focus more on kind of getting more of that end to end service of people coming to you with with the brief and you find in the voice and then also getting a bit kind of involved in the post production of the recording. So yeah,

    Jo Troy 15:45

    when I got into video, I didn't even know there was a difference. I just assumed you get an agent, and then you're off, or you do like the pay to plays. And you know, that's a whole nother world in itself. And then I realised that I could have multiple agencies, and then when I did get finally approached by an exclusive agency, I kind of didn't see the benefit at that time. But um, you know, I have a lot of acting friends. And that exclusive model seems to work for them. Because yeah, they, they want to be actors more than the VO side. So, you know, like you said, it's more of a management thing where they control their gigs, they get acting roles they get, and it's tailored to them. Whereas if I would say if you're Bo, and that's what you want to do is better to the non exclusive route, for me anyway has been more fulfilling.

    Alex 16:41

    Yeah, no, I completely agree. That's one thing I'd say I would definitely notice is the exclusive agencies tend to have a roster of kind of a lot of actors will be on their, on their books, whereas the non exclusive agencies, you tend to see voiceover artists who, you know, have never acted in their life. If they do, you can obviously get actors and voiceover artists perfect. But you can also get voiceover artists who have absolutely nothing to do that thing. I think you find them on the non exclusive agencies a lot more than where you find out as I think they go more towards the exclusive model. And I think as well naturally, as an actor, or when you know, being an actor. As soon as you go out and start getting an agent, you do tend to follow that that route of having Well, this is my exclusive agent, and they're going to look after my career. Now. I don't think there's not many actors agent. We're not talking about voiceover here. But there's not many actors, agents, I think that would ever be non exclusive. That's kind of very much a model that's more more specific to the voiceover world. And I think it works really well. I think it works. I mean, like you say you enjoy having that, that non exclusivity. I think it's good. I think it means that you know, you guys as voiceover artists can, can, you can still you can take the management of your career yourselves and be you know, you can pick and choose kind of the jobs that come to you. And you have obviously so much more choice in what it is that that you want to you want to take on and you want to work on. And likewise, we can offer our clients so much more choice in terms of the voices available to them.

    Jo Troy 18:21

    As non exclusive agencies, you mentioned that when you get multiple auditions from you know, from one client, they're sending it out to everybody, how would that work as a video if they get in multiple scripts? And they're like, Who do I go? Wait? Is there a rule of thumb for that? Is it first off first question, or do they get favourite? What do you do?

    Alex 18:43

    Who gets you the most? To be honest? Yeah, that will happen. We, like I say, some kind of clients or the big agencies, the big creative agencies will send briefs everywhere to everyone. And I guess to be honest, sometimes it's about speed. Naturally, you might say this, this agent has bought it to me first, so I'm going to honour them or, you know, I'm sure voiceovers probably do have preferred agents and ones that they don't like as much. Or maybe that's one way to word it, but they probably have their favourites. And if it's kind of going out to everyone, there will be instances where our voices will say to us, I've already had this one. Somebody's already sent this one I've already damaged for it. And that's fine. That's kind of part of the non exclusive the model and I think there's an agency that's something that we have to accept when we we are being non exclusive is that that sometimes you might have already recorded for it. The only time there would ever be a problem with that is if it's kind of an ongoing job or an ongoing client. And then it could potentially be you know, sort of a conflict of interest if if we booked you on a job, say 10 times and then you came to us and go oh, actually I'm booking on this same job now with this other agent. We might go Oh, hold on a second. We've, we've kind of booked you on it 10 times what how come you're not doing it with Dan, there might be a bit of a conflict of interest there. But generally, that's just kind of part of part of being non exclusive. And I think what's really important is, it's just because we're non exclusive, it doesn't mean that, you know, we have a kind of roster of 1000s of voices who we can't even like, put a, you know, a pitch a face to the name, where we still very much only kind of take on voices who, who we want to work with, so to speak. So it's not like we're just in like a, you know, taking a blind pick and thinking, Oh, this one, or do, we still like to try and get to know our voices as best we can. And because we still have to kind of sell your voice. And we still have to make sure that when we're getting all these, these briefs in, that we are putting the best voice forward for that job. So you know, we still do have that personal relationship, which I think is really important.

    Jo Troy 20:55

    And how many would you say you have one of us, right now,

    Alex 20:58

    we have, obviously, the International voices and kind of the UK voices. So I'm I look after the English voice is quite a wonderful team who look after the international voices, I would say on the English side of things, when you kind of break it down into kind of accents and all that kind of stuff, we've probably got maybe about 150 to 200. I would say that's obviously we've kind of people who work specifically in certain accents as well. And then people who have kind of a neutral accent or they have their, you know, their native accent. And then they also can you know, turn it off, turn it down. Yeah, so I'd say about that amount.

    Jo Troy 21:39

    And I'm sure there's, you know, there's loads of people who are listening that are looking for agents. So I wanted to ask you, how many emails do you get a day from voiceovers, on average, ask ask him to join the roster,

    Alex 21:52

    we get we get quite a few. We have a specific email at TVG at the voiceover Gallery, which obviously is on the website where we ask voices to send their reels to if they're looking for representation. But then obviously, people do send that directly to agents as well, because people are very good at finding emails, find out the email addresses, which is which is which is fine. I don't have a problem with that. I would say we we get a lot. The TVG voices email, it wouldn't be unusual for there to be you know, about 100 emails in a week kind of minimum of people, people sending in their real people. Just a lot of people don't send reels as well. People just send in asking for advice and that kind of thing. So we get a lot, it really builds up I'd say like I say about probably 100 A week going up to kind of 500 a month that just inquiries, emails. It's a busy inbox and it takes it takes a lot of sorting and a lot of admin.

    Jo Troy 22:57

    I kind of remember how we got in contact. But I remember I messaged the voice of a gallery and it may be took you about maybe up to a year to me. And the funny thing is I came in I came in to do a job before I was even on the roster. Yeah. And yeah, it I completely forgot about it, then yeah, I think he messaged me a comment. But wherever, when but yeah, and it took a while it didn't happen overnight. Yeah. So

    Alex 23:25

    I, I was thinking this myself actually before, before coming here. And I, you went into the studio and worked with Joe, our head of audio, you did a voiceover and he was your engineer. And I think you must have mentioned to Joe, I've had this voice in you obviously mentioned to Joe, that you were you're interested potentially in being wrapped, I think Joe then passed on the message to us. And then I remember seeing a LinkedIn message, you use the LinkedIn. And I think we've put two and two together. And that's, that's how it came about. We get a lot of obviously LinkedIn messages as well, from, from voices, with their reels, and that kind of thing, which we obviously we try and get back to sort of as many people as we can in terms of the sound and the rails in we kind of get an automatic email back that explains our process and how we how we kind of filter through them. And then obviously, we just try and listen to as many as we can. When we get when we get opportunity to listen to them. And if we do think that there's there's space on our books will obviously get get in touch, we want to we want to sign people. But obviously, we don't want to we don't want to take on so many people that it becomes that thing of saying you know, having having too many that we're just blind picking and we don't have any relationship with we're a non exclusive agency but we still want to really maintain that that personal relationship with our voices so that we can we can offer our clients, the best voices that we can and we want to be competent as well when we're putting voices on jobs that I'm gonna go and represent those in, in kind of the best light. I think if you get too big, you don't know kind of what's going to happen in the studio kind of thing. We, we trust ourselves. And we know that when we send voices to the studio, like they're going to deliver, and that they're going to be really great with the clients as well. So yeah, obviously, we're always always looking for kind of new voices. And what we say as well, if we don't sign you or you're not right at that point, part of the beauty of being a non exclusive agency means that we might get some really obscure brief, that means we can still come back to you in the future, even if we've not necessarily signed you. We're not necessary. As much as obviously, we're working for all the voices that that we have signed and taken on our books. Voiceovers crazy, sometimes you get, you know, really mad jobs, who might say I need 100 different voices. And we might have, well, we don't have 100 different voices that sound like that. But if we can filter that through them and say, Oh, actually, we've got this job, can we have a lot of meeting with you and get to know you a bit? And then we can we can put you forward for that? You know, I mean, so it goes in circles, just because we don't sign somebody straight away doesn't necessarily mean that we're not going to work with them again, in the future.

    Jo Troy 26:13

    So so when people reach out to you, what are common mistakes that people make

    Alex 26:19

    common mistakes, I think, I mean, in terms of what I would say is a good way to reach out is to send us your reels. So the first mistake is if you don't send a real, it's kind of just pointless, I need to the first thing I'm going to do when I get the email is probably listen to the real whilst I'm kind of scanning through the rest of the body of your message. So yeah, always, always send me a real, actually, a common mistake based on that is if you email me saying that you're in the process of getting a real, it's kinda like just just wait, get the real then email me. Brilliant that you're in the process of getting it, but I'd rather just I'd rather just listened to it. Likewise, as well, kind of, we obviously get a lot of emails of people saying that they're thinking about becoming a voiceover, which again, is, is great, but it's kind of I need to, I need to see that real. And I need to see that you're, you're up for work rather than that you're thinking about it, because there's lots of people thinking about it, and it would be impossible to kind of get back to all of them and go, Yeah, go for it. Jenna, I mean, so first thing is always always include your real your most up to date real, if you've got different reels, if you've got commercial narrative, corporate, pop them all in attach them or put them on a we transfer link. Obviously, just make sure the file size is make sure that email is sendible. So you know, it's not super huge, that kind of thing. Based on that, if you put a link in to kind of a website, or if you've got a spotlight link, or you've got any other kind of online CV, that's always really useful. Just pop it as a link. And I think you don't need to, I think as well, it's quite a lot of I think actors and voiceover artists, specifically, I think when they're, they're just starting out, feel like they need to do something that's really sort of obscure and attention grabbing in emails. And, uh, don't think you do. Like, I think like what sometimes people will put in some like, I don't know, if people just sometimes put in like, really like, stories of really crazy things or something that they think you know, we're going to read it. Oh, wow. What I think what it what is really good in an email is when you just tell me what your voice what your voice sounds like, what kind of things you've worked on in the past, or what you do, if you've got kind of a home studio setup or anything like that, that's really useful to know. And then just your reels. I think that's perfect. To me. It's somebody who literally just sales themselves in a really professional way that that's going to entice me in people kind of tell you like they'll tell you the most obscure job they've ever done, which Okay, yeah, that's cool. But I want to know, kind of the day to day because we're not going to be booking you on, you know, the most obscure, crazy, weird jobs that you've ever done. It's nice to obviously show about personality. But don't kind of think that thinking of something really crazy or telling me what football team you support is necessarily going to be the most useful thing to put in there. I think just just have the goods, the reels, a little bit about your voice, what you've worked on, if you've got a home studio, where you base, your accent, that kind of thing, and then just Just sign it off.

    Jo Troy 29:39

    So would you take somebody that that has a demo but doesn't have much experience? Oh, yeah,

    Alex 29:46

    absolutely. If you've got a demo, that's the main thing we're kind of looking for. We can obviously, you'll know that different jobs require kind of a different level of experience. Are you so you can get kind of really intense jobs, the ones that come to mind are probably kind of like the the medical, pharmaceutical jobs where you can get scripts that are like 1000s of words. And then there's words that are like 100 letters long and have lots of Zeds X, Y, Z, and you just like, how the hell do you pronounce that word? Like, honestly, some of the scripts are like another, how do you guys do this? Obviously, we would take into account your experience and think, okay, maybe we need to wait before we start putting you forward for that kind of stuff. And there are certain jobs that you know, we can we can kind of, we can shape the direction that you go in, and we can still do that was like a non exclusive agency, obviously, the exclusive agencies will have a lot more management in terms of shaping your careers and, and that that progression, but we can still do that hair, and we have the knowledge to be able to do that. And yeah, we we've discovered kind of some some great voices who we've signed, and then have gone on to work with us for a really long time who who've had literally very little experience to start. But yeah, if we, if we if we, if we think there's something there? We would we would definitely I still take them on. I think the main thing about that is that the voice is they might not necessarily have done, you know, tonnes of jobs before. But they're in the mindset where they're, they're ready to start working. They've done all that kind of that work that's required behind the scenes beforehand, they they've got the real they've, they've maybe done some classes, or if they've not done some classes, they've done some kind of stuff, you know, they've been practising their sight reading, they've they've done all that stuff. And now that they're ready, and with that, as well. It's just about kind of, it's about character, I guess, and ambition of being like, Yeah, let's go for it. Let's do this.

    Jo Troy 31:48

    Love information. I'm sure a lot of people be listening to, you will be getting a lot of people to prepare for this. Yeah, thank you for your time and given me a lot of wisdom. I'm sure it's helped a lot of people as well. So yeah, thank you again. And yeah,

    Unknown Speaker 32:09

    I hope so. I hope so.

    Jo Troy 32:11

    I hope to be working with you again soon.

    Alex 32:13

    Yes, I'm sure you will be very sure you will be.

    Jo Troy 32:21

    So what did I learn from today's conversation? Only contact agents when you have a professional demo, at least. Of course, For more demos you have the better. Bots per agent needs to hear you clearly and professionally. So if we know what kind of jobs they can pitch when contacting agencies, keep emails brief, talk them about jobs you may have done in the past, where you are located. If you have a setup, and anything you think may make you stand out in the sea of emails, and of course that gets added to them. Agents gets hundreds of emails a week and once read the majority of them so making counts. Know what you want to achieve as a voiceover. It's your end goal. Are you a presenter, actor, etc. And VOD software you want to do on the side? Do you have an entrepreneurial mindset and like to be controlled? Or do you want to do the bare minimum? These are all things you may have to think about at some stage and will help determine if an exclusive or non exclusive agent will work best for you. Ultimately, you don't need to stress about not having an agent when you start. There were loads of ways to get work and resources to understand the industry. Agents and opportunities will come your way if you have a great demo brand and market yourself well. Don't keep up and be patient.

    Thank you, Alex for voiceover gallery and all of my vo pals that helped make this episode possible. As usual, I have everyone's info and links to resources below for you to check out and I'm always here to help if you have any questions. So it looks like that's it for season one. You now have all you need, in my opinion to get started, build or grow in novio world. Big thank you to episode eight for helping me bring with you to idea of mighty life and all of the guests and contributors to each episode. You are also kind and I thank you from the bottom of my heart Without you none of this will be possible. I'll be taking a few weeks off to recharge and then I'll be back with season two, meeting more amazingly talented people and bringing you more tips and tricks for for video and audio industry. Remember to rate and please leave a review as it helps the pod be seen and continue to grow. Thanks for coming on this adventure with me so far. See you in March, signing out. Until next season. Peace out

SEASON 2

  • Jo Troy 0:01

    Hello voice. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover, and host of a voiceovers audio adventure podcast, a bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry. I share with you all of the story tips and tricks along the way.

    Welcome to the podcast, and Welcome to Season Two. I have some amazing topics to cover and some amazing people that I'll be speaking with. So let's get ready for some more adventures. There first adventure we'll be going on in season two is recording sessions, recording sessions of a voiceover his bread and butter and what is needed in order to do our job. The scripts will vary in length and of course you can record anywhere you want as long as it's a quiet space, but there's only two kinds of recording sessions that you will encounter. They are directed and self direct to sessions. A director sessions will have the client or producer in a session in person or virtually listening in and giving life feedback with a self directed session would be yourself and feedback would be given at a later date. We'll vote every session is going to be different, better ways to bring consistency in your preparation and execution to get the best results every time. It's about time again, where I asked for some inputs from some other videos and see what they do. But before we do that, let's talk about today's sponsor, which is by to voice brand new to the fitness supplement world Vita voice has created Vita voice optimise a daily easy to swallow multivitamin capsule with added nootropics proven to contribute to normal psychological and cognitive function to reduce tiredness and fatigue and to support a healthy immune system. It provides daily long term nutritional support for pro voice users, including podcasters and voiceover artists. formulated for professional voice uses to improve vocal health and wellness 100% vegan and made them a UK we've purposely source high quality ingredients. Not all big vitamin companies will do this and opt for the cheaper ingredients. Vital voice daily supplements provide an effective natural way to boost your energy, focus and immunity. If you're unable to consistently access a healthy diet, if you already take a daily supplement, the vital voice will begin easy swap and upgrade. It's been formulated by clinical voice experts and specialists performance nutritionist it provides immune boosting anti inflammatory benefits for your voice helping you to recover faster after heavy voice use. And I myself take it regularly, they given my listeners a 10% discount on a single pack, go to vital voice.co.uk. To access this very special offer, make sure you purchase through Shopify on the vital voice sites and use for code Jo Troy at checkout. Remember to use this code through Shopify. Alternatively, if that's too much for you just use the link in the description. Let's get back to the episode.

    Dan 3:13

    My name is Dan Pye. And I've been a voice actor for about six years. He's usually before a directed session, I would make sure I've read the script a good few times, and probably get some water, spend a few minutes doing a couple of vocal exercises. Whereas with the self record, I'll just kind of get in there. And and start and read in really, if I need a drink, I'll just nip out and get one. I might do a morning exercise just to loosen myself out or if I'm struggling halfway through, I'll start to introduce an exercise. And so it's just a more relaxed approach, I guess to the directed session where I do all of that stuff before the session. How do you approach recording long form script versus short form script sessions? Well, are here long form scripts because they're really long and and sometimes I do lose a bit of interest. But I mean that they're both really to me the same in terms of preparation. I'll still if I'm if I'm recording myself then to stay hydrated throughout. If I'm recording on a session, then I'll make sure again that I've got something with me to keep me hydrated. I think for me is it with the long form as it's trying to stay interested in the script and trying to stay animated with the script as well and not just becoming sterile and sounding like I'm just reading something not interesting, or that I'm not interested in because everything's interesting to somebody right? But something that I'm not interested in. Whereas I think it's important to remain sounding interested and invested in whatever it is that you read in so so yeah, I think by maintaining interest is for long form and short form are just DAG, get get on in there and, and, and read it and bring it to life.

    Chris 5:14

    Hi, I'm Chris Woodworth, and I'm a voice actor from England. And I've been the voice actor for around two years. When recording the long format script, I need to be very realistic about it with with myself really, because I need to be prepared to do it in small sections, so to speak, I try and attack it at times to see if I can get like maybe a few sentences or a paragraph out without stopping the that doesn't often happen because I get tongue tied over the smallest of things. So I need to, you know, get to grips with the script before I go into recording. But with the short form script, it's a bit easier to attack, as long as I've established the who wants and why. When it comes to prepping for a self record, I need to write down notes on my scripts, I need to really take time to prepare and figure out the intonations and everything because I'm essentially directing myself, I need to be quite brutal with myself and very picky and make informed decisions. But with preparing for a directed session, I need to make sure that all of my equipment is in place that I've got everything ready to go, that everything is opened up. And there's not going to be any technical difficulties. I've got my water here. And I have been to the bathroom and things like that I am not going to waste their time.

    Jo Troy 6:43

    I would say I take a combination of both reading scripts beforehand, what not too much, it's a nice way to get familiar with the script. And it definitely helps. Breaking down longer reads into chunks is useful and allows you to not get overwhelmed. Also, making sure my equipment is working and recording before any session is also a must. Okay. So that's what I do. I want to talk with an expert. And in today's episode, I get the chance to chat to a friend of mine, multi award winning voice over Alexia kombu. She has 10 years plus experience in the industry. And I'm excited to find out her journey, how she prepares for sessions, as well as getting some tips that may help not only myself, but anybody listening moving forward. Let's go.

    Alexia 7:37

    Okay, so I'm Alexia and I have been in the VO industry for about nearly 10 years now. And I have been in a lot of different kinds of sessions over the years, being directed in lots of different ways. And obviously, trying to adapt over the, as the years have gone by, especially with things like COVID and transitioning more to home recordings rather than going into studios. So there has been a change over the years in that sense. Yeah. I mean, I was very lucky to get into the industry quite young, so that I could kind of grow with it. Because entering right now i can i can imagine it's quite a daunting experience with it being quite, you know, quite saturated industry. And with everything like aI coming into play. I think it all it kind of happened at the right time for me. So yeah, so that's where I'm at.

    Jo Troy 8:36

    Do you Do you remember your first session? And what was that like for you?

    Alexia 8:41

    Oh, God. I think I do. I remember my first live audition when I had to go into a studio to audition. And I had these like these big earrings on. And I didn't realise that oh god, like you can't you're gonna damage the expensive headphones in this video. And the engineer was kind of a bit embarrassed. He was like, Do you mind maybe you take Do you mind like taking away? I was like, oh, yeah, no, no, it's cool. Sorry. I complete things like that you don't think about so that yeah, that was I was quite embarrassed. But yeah, don't wear big earrings to your session. Don't remember. I don't remember what it was such a long time ago. I don't think I did. I don't think I did. There is all experience my foot actually I do and my first session. It was a SNK studios just off Warren Street. And I remember being directed and it being like really cool experience because I wanted to be an actress. So I was used to sort of not being in front of a camera rather than a mic. And it didn't matter what my face was doing. It didn't matter how I looked at anything like that. It was just pure voice and I really felt like Right, this is talent. This is talent based. This has got nothing to do with me looking right for the role. And I think that's when I realised that wow, this is actually what I want to do. Because it's yeah, it's just using your voice in a completely different ways. It's quite fascinating. Really,

    Jo Troy 10:16

    would you say that you've fallen more in love with Bo over the years than acting or is always wanting to get back into war? I don't know if you still do it now. But um, is it something that you wish was kind of in parallel with your?

    Alexia 10:33

    No, no, like, straight up? 100%? No, it's not the industry for me. I don't think I was cut out for the acting industry. And I don't think it was my thing. I think I wanted it to be my thing. But when I discovered voiceovers, I realised, okay, this is what I was made for. And what I want to pursue, and I remember, I was still auditioning for like, come out TV, commercial work. When I first started voiceovers, and I walked into an audition room for a commercial for TV. Acting based, and I, I just wanted to leave, I just didn't feel like I belong there. I just all I wanted to do was be in a voiceover booth. And that's when I knew and I don't I left that scene behind me. I've never really gone back to it.

    Jo Troy 11:20

    And fast forward to now you're established in voiceover world, how many recording sessions would you say on average a day you work on now?

    Alexia 11:30

    Live sessions like directed live session? Both both a day?

    Jo Troy 11:34

    Yeah, we got we got for the days. Yeah.

    Alexia 11:37

    I mean, you know what the industry is like, it comes in waves, right? Yeah. So some days I'm in the booth all day, I'll be like back to back maybe doing six or seven sessions. But then also, you get very short projects come in like some IVR hours. So you might get five or six IVR scripts that will take you 45 minutes. Or then you might get a corporate that will take you half an hour. So it really does vary. You can fit a lot into one day in terms of recording, live sessions, I block out the hour. So I could fit in maybe five live sessions if I were to do that. But I don't like to have back to back live sessions because they tend sometimes they run over or, you know, you block out the hour, and it takes 10 minutes. And you're like, right, well, I've got five minutes now. So you work on other stuff in between. But it's a lot, it is a lot.

    Jo Troy 12:32

    And how do you prepare yourself mentally and physically before recession,

    Alexia 12:37

    mentally, make sure you've got the script. Sometimes we don't actually know what we're doing during. So if we have the scripts, we can read through it. And kind of get in the zone in that sense. And then you might get into the booth speak to the client and they want something completely different to what you thought. So I try not to get too attached. If I haven't had any direction prior to the session. Just don't with an open mind. I think when you've been doing it for so long, it kind of comes second nature. You have your little routines like I do. I start the morning with a warm up but I won't warm up before every session because it's likely I'm already warmed up because I've been voicing previous maybe like an hour before. Make sure I'm hydrated. Always have my herbal tea with me and you make sure you're not hungry. That's actually quite a big thing. Because my stomach grumbles so loud. That it I mean, I've been in sessions where it's really embarrassing. I'm so sorry, my stomach's wandering. So I always make sure I'm not hungry. That sounds so silly, but and then make sure you're eating the right thing. Like don't go and eat peanut butter for your session. Because then you're going to be clicking all over the place.

    Jo Troy 13:52

    Like two of the things you just said. Being hungry affects me in a different way though. It actually gives me a headache if I don't. Oh, okay. So that's one thing. And then the peanut butter. Oh my I've there's been times when I've just eaten the wrong thing. away with it. I've got away because it was like a quick scripts, but I'm like, there's been times when Yeah, you get that dry mouth and there's no way around it. It doesn't matter how much water you drink. It makes it worse. So yeah, yeah, it's definitely a thing that you shouldn't do. How do you approach long form scripts versus short scripts? How do you approach them differently in either preparation or just the way you you approach the recording process?

    Alexia 14:39

    Okay, so I do my long form is it would be elearning I don't do audiobooks or anything like that. Yeah, so for say I've got a 7000 word script. It's gonna take me a couple of hours. I would make sure that there's no external distractions. So Try and make like, if you've got a delivery or something and you're recording by yourself, I try and make sure that I'm not going to record when the delivery is due. Because once you're distracted, and you've got to get out of the booth, answer the door, it's like, it's the most frustrating thing with long form. So that's one thing, try and schedule if you're doing your own session, try and schedule it at a time that works for you. You can't read the script the whole way through before this before the session, because it's to you're not going to sit and read 7000 words, unless you're doing an audio book where you have to know the characters and pre read the book with elearning, it's unlikely you're going to read the whole script before you record. But you need to have an idea of who your audience is the content, whether it's serious art, be conversation, or whatever. And make sure you're maintaining that throughout the read. Because you can't start a long form, read one way and then kind of by the end of it, you're in a completely different place, in terms of time, needs to be consistent. So to do that, take a pause when you say you've been reading for 1520 minutes, take a pause, go back, listen to the beginning of the audio. And start again from where you left off with that similar tone. And what I also like to do as well, at the end of the audio, go back and read the first few paragraphs again, because you're so into that tone and that vibe. And that feeling that if you go back and listen to the first few paragraphs, they might have a slightly different energy. So I tend to do that just to meet and then listen back and see what works best just to make sure you've covered yourself. And that's really how I approached Yeah, that's how I would go about it. Don't overthink it too much.

    Jo Troy 16:39

    It was what do you have the same approach for short form scripts, so something like a radio ad or like just a normal commercial on TV?

    Alexia 16:47

    And no, because they're usually time restricted. So I like to go into the session knowing I've read it through a few times. So I start the session. Knowing right I've got speed really fast for this read, or I've got actually got a lot more time to play with. Otherwise, you're going to record, spend like 10 minutes recording a few and then realise they're all too long, or they're actually too fast. And you've got more time to play with this is if you're directing yourself, when you're, when you're being directed, it's a lot easier because you do a read. And then the engineer might say, Oh, that good client might say okay, well, this, this is actually shorter than we thought it would be. So you've got more time to play with or you've really got speed up. So really depends what situation you're in. But with the commercials, you should really go over them before the session. Get familiar with them. But again, the scope changes scripts change when you're in the session. So

    Jo Troy 17:43

    sometimes that sometimes they get actually written in. Is that key? No focusing on self directed sessions. How do you think you've developed over the years speaking from past experience, I know when I first started just with the speed of things, and how, you know, quickly Bruce will come through and then the way that you've got to deliver in a certain way and different alternatives. And all of that I kind of learned going along was any mistakes that you made when you first started that you know, that you just lost, but now looking back at

    Alexia 18:18

    it, perhaps not mistakes. But say you get a script through that you absolutely love. Yeah, and you want it you want it to be read in this way. Or you think it sounds better. In this tone, style, or whatever, yeah. And you become really attached to that. But it's not necessarily what the client wants, I find that hard, because your opinion really doesn't matter. Our job isn't to give our opinion is to deliver what the client wants and how they want it. So I was struggling with that at first because I felt like I don't actually have that creative freedom, you know that I feel like this should be read with this accent or within this way. And the clients pushing back and saying, We don't want it like that. But my ear is saying but it doesn't have the same impact in that way. It doesn't matter. And it's you have to step away from it's not our work. They're not our words, the art project is our voice. And our job is to do what they want us to do. So not necessarily mistakes, but things to learn something that I have to learn. Yeah,

    Jo Troy 19:23

    I think that's something that I found difficult in the beginning as well. Just knowing that it's not your work, like you said, and sometimes they will ask for your creative input and that's always nice. And they want they said they come to you as the as the expert. But um, yeah, in the beginning, it was really difficult. I remember I had one person I remember very, very well. He asked me to say one word in the script, but he wanted me to say it in a different accent just because he likes the way it sounded in that accent on American accent I was like, Why? Why? Well, it was someone from Europe. So, you know, they didn't really care. You just, they wanted to sound a certain way. But afterwards, I was like, I never want to hear the script again. Because if I hear this outside somewhere, I hear that I will cringe. But, yeah, it's hard. Yeah,

    Alexia 20:24

    I mean, you do do some work. And you think I did actually like that, or I didn't, I didn't really didn't like that read, but it's the client was happy. And ultimately, that's the main thing, but you don't want to hear it. And you're like, No, I don't want to hear that. I didn't want to do it that way. But as long as the end, client is pleased, then we've done our job well, and it's irrelevant. What we think

    Jo Troy 20:47

    I follow you on Instagram, as you know, and in the voiceover community. In some circles, you're known as the walking lady. So what I mean by that is you obviously, you know, you, you record out in studios a lot, as well as in your home studio. Which do you prefer, and why

    Alexia 21:11

    I much prefer going into studios. The reason being, you're there to do your job, which, first, but ultimately, above everything our job is we're voiceover artists, we're not actually audio engineers, we're not actually editors, were we these are skills, we have to learn in order to be able to do our jobs outside of the studios and do them at home ourselves. And it's it's part it is part of the role of being a VO. But it's not the part where I have the passion for it just comes part of the role. So going into a studio, not only do you get to see people, which is very nice, because we don't see anyone, if we're recording at home, you get to go in and just think about the script and doing your job and reading. Whereas if you're recording at home, you're making sure your levels are okay, or keeping an eye on on the timings and there's an eye on it, like whatever software you're using. And it's a lot to do at home by yourself. And then once you finish the job, you then have to spend an hour going through the audio and making sure everything's okay and editing and then sending it off. When you're in a studio, you go in you do your job, and you can just focus on that, and then you leave, and then it's someone else's job to take on the rest of the work. So that's the main reason why I prefer going to studios, or that I'm seeing people.

    Jo Troy 22:34

    Yeah, would you say is it's, you know, obviously I understand if it was like you're going to work and you know, once we leave that place, then you finished your job? Do you feel the same way about directors sessions at home as well, like on clean feed or source Connect? Do you feel is kind of the same? Or is not comparable to you?

    Unknown Speaker 22:55

    Um, difficult question.

    Jo Troy 22:58

    Because sometimes i i prefer clean feet and sills connect sessions, because it might be raining outside and I want to go well, I want to go to trade. But obviously it's nice to see people you know, like you said, but yeah, I prefer sometimes to clean fees. This was connected as well. But

    Unknown Speaker 23:19

    yeah, I guess external factors do come into play. But I look, it's great that we can. And also, it's annoying to get on the train to go and do a 10 minute radio ad, for example, which is what we used to do before COVID and everything all the time. And now it's like, okay, great. I can do four in one hour, which you can't do going from studio to studio. So so it does, it opens up the doors to getting more done in your day. But then with that comes being overworked and then you know, I've got the time to fit in loads. So I will. And when you actually say for example, the other day, I was in a studio for one hour, then I went to another studio for another hour, had that break in terms of coming home on the train, and then getting on with some work in my studio. So I had that break. But when I'm purely doing sessions at home, I don't get that break. It's just back to back and then before it before you know it, you're exhausted. That's another reason why it's kind of nice to get out, I guess because you get to have that break in between

    Jo Troy 24:26

    what is your setup for Director sessions or self directed sessions.

    Alexia 24:31

    So I've got my purpose built booth. And in there I have a monitor. Now I remember when I first started out, I didn't have a monitor, I pressed record and then like run into my little setup. And now that gives me so much things to think like oh my god, I was doing sessions I couldn't see if it was recording or if there was something wrong. Like how was I? How was I doing that? So for me, non negotiable is having a screen or a monitor where you can keep an eye on your recording. Imagine that stops recording everything. Yeah. So yeah, I would say you need your monitor, you need to have your levels, your whatever you use, I use a scarlet Focusrite to adjust your levels. And that could be because they want one read this, I don't know more louder chattier, you're gonna have to adjust your levels. Otherwise, it's going to be all off, and your mouse and your keyboard so that you can navigate your monitor. But ultimately, you need your recording space to be as good as it can be. And it doesn't have to be a studio bricks or a sound, a vocal booth or whatever, it doesn't have to be a huge, expensive, heavy, massive booth. Just whatever you can do. To create good quality work is not good quality. No one's gonna want to use it. But yeah, you have to be serious about what you're, you know, your equipment. It's your business at the end of the day. So if you've got budget equipment, and you're not willing to invest in it, then you're not serious about your business ultimately.

    Jo Troy 26:12

    Do you remember your first kind of setup? Oh, yeah.

    Alexia 26:16

    This is, I can't believe I used to show people as a cause. They must have been thinking, What are you doing? And I used to, when I first started, I opened up my autos. Now the reason why I didn't invest when I first started, because I wasn't sure if I was any good, of course. So I thought, right, well, let's see how this goes at first. And then as I earn more money, and if it starts going, well, then I will invest. So I looked at all the things online basically opened up my wardrobe, and put my duvet over the doors, which I'm sure everyone has done, had my mic on is standing there, my little stool, and all my wires connecting to my laptop. And I started off with Audacity, Audacity, fury. And started off that way, and actually managed to record some pretty good jobs from there. Because the sound was right in terms of like the dampening, there was no echo because it was like clothes and do they and pillows and the amount of people that have had to do this on holiday and, you know, say you've got an emergency job, and you've just got your equipment with you. You can do it. It's just not sustainable. And it's not ideal. So I wouldn't knock it if you're first trying starting out because I did it. And then when you can and when you have your space, then you move upwards.

    Jo Troy 27:41

    I'm sure you must have a horror story that you just have nightmares about.

    Unknown Speaker 27:49

    Just in terms of a session, yes, a

    Jo Troy 27:51

    session that just went horribly wrong.

    Alexia 27:54

    I mean, I've had pre session nightmares. I had one the other week, where my Mac just was not starting it was it was literally dead. But it was just a black screen. And I had a session of 15 minutes. And I was just I didn't know what to do. Luckily, I had a backup laptop. So I mean, it took about half an hour to get that laptop on who was so old. But it had Adobe Audition already installed. And all I had to do was kind of connect my mic again. And I managed to do it. I mean, I was half an hour late to the session, but we managed to do it. And then I had to go to Mac that afternoon. Sorry to apple that afternoon. And they fixed my MacBook. But we're in the session, I have had sessions where I haven't really felt well. And actually was one particular session. And I emailed the client just before saying like, look, I feel really unwell. Could we postpone? And they were like, No, the clients coming in. And we've got to do this session, I was recording from home. So what I was honest, on the call, I was honest. And I said look, I really don't feel well. If I need to pause every now and again. Is that okay? And then it's absolutely fine. We just need this job done today. So is that okay, fine. So I would read a bit, a few lines, and I'll be okay. And he's pause. And I'd like take a few deep breaths. Because those boots get hot. Yeah. And then go back, read another few lines on reasonable pause. It's just about being honest. And being professional. At the end of the day, everyone's human. And they were happy at the end. It was just I felt like oh my god that this this is not professional. But you can't help if you're unwell one day, but generally I've been quite lucky and I can't think of any terrible, terrible sessions. If anything has gone wrong. It's been tech. And that's been like early days when you don't really know what you're doing. And I think there was one time where everything was going wrong. So I just stopped recording on my end and I was just doing In the session, I was like, I'm just gonna have to remember what I've done sort out my tech, and we record it afterwards. And that was a bit of a nightmare, but the client didn't notice. So yeah, I think it's tech biggest downfalls.

    Jo Troy 30:13

    I would I would agree with that. Check is definitely the devil sometimes it's, you know, you can bring your records in sometimes that you're not, or Oh, yeah, I remember one instance. At the time, it was like, the biggest job I'd ever done. And it was, I was, it was over the internet. They were directing me. And yeah, I've done a session I was so happy. I was like, yes, like, I'm so proud of myself. And then the edge of the text me. And he said, I'm this the files that you sent me this a hiss in the back that I can't really remove. And I was like, Oh, my God, what I did I start panicking. I didn't, I listened back on my side. And I'm like, Oh my god. So what it was is, XLR cable was faulty. And I had done a session after that, which was fine. But for some reason, you know, you know, those those jobs where you just have to, you know, the cables, just rubbish. And you just have to angle it in a certain way. So it doesn't bother the wall. But it just, it just was dead. But luckily, I had the spare one. So now going forward, if I could get a spare of anything, I just have a backup because I just Yes, so when that's happened again, it happened with my laptop as well. You know, I just had to get out some cover not so I can get something back. But yeah, that's that's something I would definitely invest in like cables, just have loads of cables, just put that in headphones and all that jazz because

    Alexia 31:57

    and always save your work. Like the second year I finished it.

    Jo Troy 32:00

    I save in German German

    Alexia 32:03

    need, oh my god that I recorded an elearning medical script that was so complicated. It was about an hour and a half worth of audio on unedited so I had to go through it all. And my Adobe crashed. And usually when it crashes, you can open the session and it's got everything there. Like where you left off. But for some reason, it just was wasn't like the file was too big. It just couldn't cope. So I had to delete that I had to delete delete it in order to be able to open Adobe again. And I lost I lost it all. And I had to do it again. Yes.

    Jo Troy 32:36

    redo it. Yeah. So the client didn't know did they? Obviously no, no, that was, that was Yeah. The wonderful world we live in. Well, I'm going to let you get back. I'm sure you've got lots of recording to do today. But um, thank you for taking your time out of your day to speak to me. Thank you. Thank you. So what did I learn from today's conversation? Make sure you're prepared both mentally and physically hydrate and be in the right mental space before any session. If you can get to look at the script before the session, but don't get too attached to things will change. And the way you want to deliver the script with the client might not like anyway, remember, you don't have the creative freedom. So always be open mind for directors sessions. If you can schedule a time that works for you to avoid any external distractions. This helps with consistency. Self records, get as much information as you can ask who the intended audience is the pace of the read and means to limit retakes later on down the line and make your job easier. And finally, I know this might sound obvious part, remember to test record before any home session and make sure you're always recording and saving as you go along. It sounds stupid, but equipment have a life of their own. And it's always better to be safe and sorry. Thank you to Alexa for joining me today, Dan and Chris for sharing their experiences. And most of all, you for listening. As usual, I have everyone's info and links below for you to check out. I'm always here to help if you have any questions. That's all for this week. Remember to subscribe, and I'll see you next time

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way. Before we start this episode, I would like to make a public announcement. And please, please, please urge all of you listening to leave a review and leave a rating if you can. It means the world to me, it helps the podcast grow and puts a smile on my face. So go ahead do that. Now. I hope you enjoy the episode. I occasionally get asked to do audiobooks. And even though I know I don't want to do them, little voice in my head always wants to entertain it. I've done my fair share of long form breeze but my sweet spot and main work usually comes in a shorter form and allowed to keep it that way. The truth is, I have no idea what is required of me and how much I can even charge. This is a subject that I get a lot of questions about, but I don't think I'm the right person to answer. So let's get some oh geez in the game to tell us more.

    Billie 1:18

    Hi, I'm Billie Fulford Brown. I started in voiceover probably about 10 years ago now. Just doing a few jobs here and there. And I went full time about five or six years ago. I mainly specialise in audiobooks. And I also do video games and audio dramas and all kinds of other bits and pieces I have completed coming on funair around 200 audiobooks, which is quite a lot. So I think the biggest misconception about audiobooks is that they will just take forever and a day to complete. And while yes, of course they are long form and of course they are going to take longer than a short corporate or a short commercial. Once you get in your rhythm. And once you get your your technique and your flow and your shedule sorted, they really don't take as long as a lot of people think and I really don't want people to be scared of them audiobooks is just the most satisfying and incredible area to be involved in. So what do I hate about audiobooks? To be honest, that there genuinely is nothing I hate. It is an area of voiceover that I adore. I think there are some things that can be a little bit frustrating as the Narrator These are many things like when you get the script just way too late. Because prep is absolutely key when you're doing an audio book, you know, you've got all of the characters, the accents, the the words that you need to look up, you also might need to get some questions back to the author. If it's a fantasy world, or you know, there's loads of made up words or language. So having enough time between the script landing in your inbox and actually recording, I mean, a good month is really ideal. That that is what you want when you get a script a week before. It's tough. It's really tough.

    Chris 3:15

    I'm Chris Devon. I am a voice actor, audiobook narrator sketch comedian, content creator various things on the internet. I have been a voiceover for about 10 years now, which is quite amazing. Wow. Yeah, yeah, about 10 years. I've completed 70 audiobooks in that time. Audiobooks is the sort of genre of video that I've done the most, and I've really embraced it. I love it. The biggest misconception about audiobooks is that it is horrifically time consuming and energy draining. It is if you allow it to be I mean, with a decent amount of preparation and proper vocal warm ups and looking after yourself and going for books that you're really passionate about not just taking those big chunky projects because it's like Ah, okay, it's not a great book, what do I need the money, you know, those books will will be a real drag. Don't allow yourself to do that, you know, be careful with the jobs that you go for and make sure it's something you can prep and really get into. What I hate about audiobooks is only the fact that so many people still maintain to this day that audiobooks aren't reading. Of course they are. It doesn't matter whether a captivating story or an educated educating piece of work goes into your brain via your eyes or your ears or your mouth. As long as you're consuming that story and you benefit from that book, either in an entertaining way or enlightening or educational way or motivational way. Perhaps books have many, many benefits. It doesn't matter how you consume them. I think as long as people are continuing to consume them, great stuff audiobooks are definitely still reading they still count you

    Jo Troy 5:01

    That was impressive to say the least, at the amount of experience and audiobooks completed, the thing that they both had in common was the passion for what they do, which ultimately doesn't even make it seem like work, some great insights. Today's expert is newer to the industry and has turned his love for audio books into one of his niches, which he is killing. I wanted to know more about how he navigated the ever changing landscape of the audio book genre, what his processes of recording are, rates and much more. Introducing Sebastian Brown.

    Sebastian 5:42

    I'm Sebastian Brown. I'm a voice actor in the writer. I've been doing voiceover I started very tentatively back in 2016. And that was like, I, I, I was on the back of sort of stepping away from being an actor on on stage because I wasn't really getting to the places I wanted to get. And I ended up doing a couple voice reels, I kind of fell in with a couple people very randomly, through people I knew who were doing, who worked for production companies, and they were doing things like demos that were for selling to clients. So they're not voice over demos, but like, they were doing mock ups of things. Okay, so like a mock up of a commercial for a company. And they asked me to be the voiceover for it. Now, this was just like, it wasn't a real commercial, it wasn't broadcast, but it gave me the experience of going into a studio and actually doing the job. And that was like, right off the bat, I kind of was in that environment. And then I was doing other things at the same time. So voice over kind of took a backseat. And eventually, I started to take it more seriously. And I realised that it was something that I really, really wanted to pursue. So then, of course, I did what everybody does. And I took the steps and I started to do coaching and training and and built it up from there. But I didn't really start taking it seriously until about three or four years ago. Okay,

    Jo Troy 7:17

    and how many audiobooks Do you think you've done? Roughly? Now?

    Sebastian 7:21

    Not that many? Not that many. I've done somewhere between 15 and 20. Okay, I've done about 18 now. So I haven't done huge amounts of them. Not by any means our audio books was one of the very first things that I did. And I hope that that very first book that I did is never ever listened to.

    Jo Troy 7:46

    I was gonna say, Do you remember your first audiobook? And so clearly, it wasn't an enjoyable experience? Can you tell us more?

    Sebastian 7:55

    It wasn't that it wasn't an enjoyable experience, I actually really enjoyed it. And I don't think that it's, it's a bad book to listen to. I think what's interesting is the process by which I did it was very much in line with where I was at the time as a voice actor. And that was a sort of spread out process that I did over a long period of time, I came back and forward in and out of the book. And I'm surprised that actually it's as consistent as it is. Whereas now the work is very different. Because I know how to approach the book in the sort of the three different stages, the preparation, the recording, and the editing. And not always, am I involved in all three of those processes. Obviously, I'm always involved in the first two are not always involved in the editing depends on who I'm working for. So, yeah, actually, audiobooks was one of the first things that I kind of contacted. And I think that's because I came from an acting background. So as somebody who had that acting experience, I really liked the idea of getting to play all these characters. Because I mean, a part of the reason why I disliked working as an actor in in the real world, as opposed to my booth was because nobody would let me play the parts that I wanted to play. Okay, I'm six foot four. And so everybody wanted me to play this hero character or this, you know, they were also boring. And I was like, Well, what about the what about the interesting parts? What about you know, why don't I get to play the old hag? Yeah.

    Jo Troy 9:38

    So do you think coming from that background that gave you the so called transferable skills to take into audiobooks and why do you think it was audiobooks are not, you know,

    Sebastian 9:50

    computer games, for example? That is a very good question. I think that's because I'm an avid reader, and I always have been so I think not only was there a love for the performance aspect of it, but there was also a love for reading that I've had from a very young age. So I think that's why it was definitely a transferable skill, because I'm quite a fluid fluid reader. And so I really enjoyed that process. And I think you, when I began to move into that idea, I was like, this makes a lot of sense to do something that I already feel like I can sort of conqueror, of course, I was actually very naive about the skills that it requires to do an audio book in the kind of way that it should be done. And I think that is interesting for a lot of people who come to it saying, Oh, I would like to do this, I would, I think I could be good at it. And it is a marathon. It really is. And when you think about how much training goes into a marathon, and how much you have to put in, I think the reason why a lot of voice actors might have a certain reticence about getting involved is because they might not feel that the worth at the end justifies the amount of training that you have to make. But I don't feel that way. Yeah, I, I absolutely love it. And I love the process. And I think that if you are going to do it, then you just have to prepare yourself in the appropriate way. And in that situation, you're going to end up with something that, you know, can be really wonderful. And I am still at the beginning of learning. You know, I mean, I've listened to some narrators, and they are so good. So good. You know, the the quality of being able to move sufficiently through different character voices, and even nonfiction narration, being able to bring it to life in a way that just keeps you engaged. I think it's such a skill. And I think that's why I'm so drawn to it, because it seems like this thing that I have to work harder.

    Jo Troy 12:11

    So would you say that one of the main skills you need to do audio books would be first of all, to be a to love reading, and second of all, being able to create characters.

    Sebastian 12:28

    So this is interesting. So I think if you're gonna do nonfiction books, then obviously you don't need to be able to create characters. And I think that actually, there's a lot of people who do specialise in just doing nonfiction. I think that what was the other thing you said?

    Jo Troy 12:48

    Building characters,

    Sebastian 12:48

    I forgotten what the other point was the characters and read Yeah. Oh, and the, and the love of reading? Yeah. So this is hard, because from, from my perspective, I love reading, I did love reading, and therefore it made it easier for me. I don't think you have to love reading. But I think you have to love telling stories. And that's the difference. Some people don't necessarily like to read books, but they're really good at telling us sort of exciting story. And they're very good at talking. And so that might be the way in which you kind of work your way into it. Like, do you love to tell a story, the only thing I would say is you have to practice, you have to pick up a book, and you have to read out loud five pages every day, you have to get to the stage where you're reading those pages out loud and you're not making mistakes and you're not tripping over words, and you're not having to constantly stop and start because it will ruin the flow. And that's when you start to find your own pace. But I think a love of reading definitely helps. I don't think it's essential. But I think most people who love doing audiobooks, I think the love of reading probably helps a lot more with fiction. Okay, because I think a lot of people who do nonfiction, a lot of voice actors do long form narration for lots of other areas, like elearning, and things like that. But I think if you're going into fiction audiobooks, you kind of have to love the process of reading and telling that story.

    Jo Troy 14:29

    So you get an email from a from an agent saying we want you to do this job, which is obviously a book, what is the process and how to prepare for each job.

    Sebastian 14:46

    Okay, so I guess I'll use the last one I just did as an example. I guess immediately what you're looking at is a couple different things. So the Right. Is it? Is it worth the time?

    Jo Troy 15:03

    We'll get into arrays later? No worry.

    Unknown Speaker 15:06

    Yeah, we'll get into.

    Unknown Speaker 15:10

    That kind of was,

    Sebastian 15:11

    um, I mean, yeah, I mean, as is as it is with all areas of voiceover, right, like it is endless can of worms. So if I get an email from somebody, and they want me to do an audio book, the things that I'm looking at are, where's it coming from? And what kind of place? Is it going to? So who is it coming from in terms of what size of Publisher? Is it? What size of recording studio? Is it? Am I doing it in house? Am I doing it in my booth? And where is it going? Where is the platform that it's going to be on? And how is it going to be received, because those things kind of inform the process of what I'm going to have to do. The most recent book that I finished was a book for was my first book for Penguin, penguin in New York. And they contacted me and said, we've got a dual narration. And we think you'd be right for this character. And I think that that might have been cast through Ahab, Ahab talent. And they obviously do a lot of audiobook casting within that platform, as well as having auditions for people to, you know, audition for. So they got in touch with me and said, We think you'd be right. And it's a dual narration. So half the chapters are yours half the chapters belong to a female narrator. So once I had accepted the job, and they obviously are in New York, so they did a studio check on my recording studio. And once they'd approved it, and they were happy with the quality. They then said, Great, we'll book in some dates, we booked in three dates. And from that point, which was probably about three weeks before, I then had to prep the book. Okay, now, PrEP is completely different for everybody. And it's a process that each individual can do their own thing where there are certain do's and don'ts, I guess that apply. But really, it's very much an open spectrum. I did a course with the incredible Helen Lloyd. And if anybody doesn't know, Helen Lloyd, then you should listen to her books. And, you know, listen to her advice in any way, because she's a fantastic narrator. And she taught me everything I know, basically. So I did a course with her that I, that was six modules. And I thought it was going to take me six weeks. And it took me about a year and two months, I think it was mainly because I was also working at the same time and doing other things. But also because each module involved a heavy amount of reading, and a heavy amount of preparation, recording and sending things to Helen to listen to. And then there was a feedback process. I can't tell you how detailed it was, and how much work it took, and how much it elevated. What I thought I knew about audiobooks. So I will say the training helps, it is important. And you can go into narration in a lot of different ways. But that was the way that I did it. And yeah, so basically, that process really helped me with my preparation, because I now have all these things that I learned in terms of building characters, not building voices. And that was one of the most important things that Helen stressed was that you're not building voices, you're not here to put on funny voices, you're here to play characters and they have to live in you. So when that narration comes around, and I'm, I'm being the Jasper blunt, the the, you know, the soldier, and then all of a sudden, I'm being this coquettish little lady, you know, they all live in different parts of my body because I have to be able to move through them very quickly. Yeah. And saying that I've listened to other narrators who have sounded far more distinct from person to person. That's something that I really want to work on is really varying those voices so that they sound very distinct. Anyway, sorry, I'm waffling on. So basically, prep the book. I have a tendency to just keep talking. Once I've prepared the book, which normally involves probably reading it two or three times, it depends on the process of what the book is. Normally, I would read it once without making any notes. I would just read it as a reader. And then I would read it again and I would make notes about characters make notes about Plot timelines where people are at any given moment in the story, what they're feeling thinking. And then I start to do sort of little improvisations. And I start to bring the characters into the booth, and I start to talk with them and live with them and see how they sound as well. What was interesting about the last project that I did was that because it was a dual narration, I had to have the character voices cemented before I went into the recording, which obviously is a given anyway, but I had to have them approved, because I had to send them off, and have the director listen to them and say, Great, this is all sounding good. So that the female narrator who was recording after me, could hear them, and, in a way, not mimic me, but understand the nuance and the cadence and the the phrasing that I might be using for a particular character. So it was quite advantageous for me to go first, because I laid out those character lines for her. And then once that process is done and ready, then the recording takes place. And that happened over three days. And I think we actually finished it in two, we actually finished early. But normally, it's basically a sort of 10am until 5pm recording process, you take breaks where you need, and you work your way through the book. And having a director there is very helpful because they can give you feedback as you go. And there are two different ways of recording either punch and roll, which is where you record and if you make a mistake, you stop and then you punch in on that point and keep recording. Or you do a straight record, which is what I did for this, which is where if you make mistakes, you just take a ref compose and then go back into it. And then at the end of the recording process, all of the files get sent to a lovely editor, which is really nice, because then I don't have to go through and edit it myself. Yeah. And that, and then any revisions, there's then a process of revisions, they come back to you with anything that needs to be re recorded. So you go back in and do any revisions. And then of course, the book is complete. So it is a long a long process. Well, I mean, that depends if I'm that and this is the thing, it's just completely changeable with across the spectrum. If I'm doing a nonfiction project, I will normally try to read the project over a couple days, depending on the length of it. I mean, if it's a if it's a huge volume of something, then that's going to take a lot longer, but and then record it over three and then send it off, you know what I mean? So yeah, whereas fiction takes longer because you're you're trying to build the characters, some nonfiction takes a lot more preparation. But there isn't really an average, right? If you're recording in studio, and you're prepping beforehand, going in, and then you know, wiping your hands clean of it, then it can be a couple of weeks. But if you're doing the whole process, which is something else to talk about, then it could take a lot longer. And that is something you need to factor in, if you're going to be doing lower end projects into terms of your time and your value. Now,

    Jo Troy 23:41

    we spoke about this before you go into talking about the process, but the rates now I think that's one thing that I was so confused about that has put me off of audiobooks, more so than actual work itself. Because I don't understand it. And when people ask me how much I should charge, I have no idea. Even if I speak to people, if I go on websites, bla bla bla bla bla, because it's every book is different. Like you said, you got fiction, nonfiction, you got those, whatever. So in idiots, terms, how can you break this down as simple simplified manner? You're laughing but it's just okay. Okay, what would you do? Okay, let's let's, what would you do? I've emailed you. I have a book 200,000 words. Bam, and it's going to go on

    Sebastian 24:42

    Audible. Okay, well, I think what's interesting is that the thing about the word count is that it doesn't really matter in audio books. So, although you can equate it to the fact that the book will be longer and therefore you will get paid more Most, if not all, audio books are paid per finished hour. So for every hour that you produce of finished audio, you'll get a rate for that hour. And they range. Some of the studios in the UK chart pay between 85 and 100 per finished hour, some of them go up to 250 300 plus. So there's a big range there, in terms of, of what people are paying. And I know that in America, they pay more. So you know, it does vary massively. But the word count is kind of irrelevant in terms of working out your final pay, what you really want to be looking at is, how much time am I going to have to dedicate to the book overall. Because if I have a fiction, that is an epic, mediaeval fantasy, that has over, you know, 50 characters in it, and is a potential three volume book, The first of which is 120,000 words, that's gonna be a, that's gonna be a lot of work, you're gonna be a lot of crap, it's going to be a very difficult recording process. And it's going to be, you know, so I think that really, when you're looking at rates, you want to be looking at how much work you're going to have to put in, I also think that there are very established narrators who obviously work for certain amounts, and there are other people coming into the industry, like in every level, who are happy and willing to accept lower rates. That is a dangerous game. And it's the same thing in gaming. And it's the same thing in every other area of voiceover, you know, if we, we kind of have to hold on to the ideas of this being a skilled profession, not everyone can do this. So, yeah, and again, if you're going to be editing a book, you factoring the editing process into your, you know, monetary gain, I will say, for the most part, most people who contact me, they say, either, this is the finished rate, or this is what you'll get per finished hour. And that's that there's very little negotiation involved, and most of them are lower than what you might expect. One of the things I will say, and this is a, there's a lot of discussion around ACX, and whether it has any benefits or not as a numerator. And I would argue that it does have some benefits, but you have to know how to use it. And this is what I think a lot of people don't necessarily talk about in terms of finding the projects that can be beneficial to you, either through portfolio use as a starter voice actor, or through the use of passive income, once you've already made a book, the only things that I really do through ACX are nonfiction titles that have a relatively reputable publication house behind them. Because what they do is a lot of them are royalty share, and they go online, and they earn me money. Yeah, every month. And that is, you know, and it's not, I think a lot of people don't like the idea of not getting paid for something upfront immediately or being able to invoice for it, as opposed to having a sort of steady stream of income from books that I've made three years ago. And I think that that's not to be that's not to be put down by, you know, in the in the UK, it's a lot harder because the books available for UK narrators on ACX are not as good as the books available for American narrators. It's a much bigger thing in America, the UK doesn't take it as seriously. But what I would say is choosing projects that are advantageous doing your research about them can be very beneficial to you.

    Jo Troy 29:22

    Yeah. For those who don't know, would you like to explain what ACX is?

    Sebastian 29:28

    Yes, so ACX is the audiobook creation exchange. It is a company. It is a subsidiary of Amazon basically. And on it, there are books that you can audition for. So you can put your samples up, and producers will also find you I've had people approached me through ACX and asked me to do books. And if you're starting out as a writer, and you don't know where to begin, it's a good place to look at the kind of projects that are available and see whether or not you even want to Get involved. And practice. Because audiobooks, you kind of have to know whether you can do it first, you know, you got to practice you got to put in some time. And so the platform allows you to send auditions to either directly to authors or producers. And they have a range of pay available, they have profit share. So a royalty share projects, whereby you get half of the sales of the book, which I know people will talk about a lot, it's not actually half of the sales, but you get based on the contract, it's not actually half of the sales. But that's a whole nother issue, you get money from the sale of the book. And there are also per finished hour rates, and they go up to 1000 per finished hour. And that does tend to be on the big American books that are on there. But it is a it is a resource that can be used, especially when you're starting out.

    Jo Troy 31:02

    And just to wrap it up. You kind of touched on this during our talk anyway. But do you want to recommend any good resources that people can you know, if they're just starting? Or if they want to learn more?

    Sebastian 31:16

    Yeah, well, there's actually a lot of, there's a lot of different things online. So there's the narrator's roadmap, which is a fantastic website. And it basically offers a lot of advice, from the beginning, all the way through, it will guide you on lots of different things. If you're looking at serious, serious coaching, then, you know, I would consider talking to Helen Lloyd, as long as you already have an idea that you want to do it. Because she's a great resource. And she's a great teacher. And obviously, once you are then narrating and once you're going, I would say look at ACX, don't be afraid of it. If you don't want to use it, then don't. I'm definitely at the position where I'm, you know, working much more with independent publishers and authors than I am with ACX. But it is still a good resource. And it is something that there is work there to be had. But also, yeah, I would say don't be afraid to get in touch with publishing houses and with people and to advertise yourself. And to, you know, sell those narration skills.

    Jo Troy 32:26

    Is there is there also any other places that people can learn about more of the business elements of it, like, just the workings in the rates? And how to, you know,

    Sebastian 32:38

    I think, yeah, well, the neuritis roadmap is actually if you look at things like that, they they have a lot of advice on them about the process, the preparation thing, there's not a lot out there in terms of how you should or shouldn't do it, only because it's quite personal. So I think that's why, but also, you know, a lot of coaching establishments will teach you about that process, whether that's with Helen Lloyd, or whether that's with another establishment that has an audio book, you know, kind of tangent to it, a lot of them will teach you about that process. And I know there are lots of resources online, I just don't know the names of them, because I don't retain any information. For the sole purpose that I have to live in the moment on the page, so I can't keep things in here. Otherwise,

    Unknown Speaker 33:36

    I love it.

    Sebastian 33:39

    It's, it's, it's true. Trust me, if I have other things going on. I'm like, what what? Yeah, so I would say, in terms of the business aspect, in terms of the rates, I would ask people, and genuinely, you know, it's hard in this context to say, this is what you should be charging, because this doesn't really apply. There's too many variables in place. So I think the most important thing is to say, if you have a question, don't be afraid to approach somebody who's working in the business. I mean, send me an email God, I'll give you advice. You know, I'll happily give people advice about what they should or shouldn't be recharging. Not that I'm the arbiter of all audio book knowledge, but I think it's helpful to have somebody to bounce off of. So yeah, I would say the business aspect of it is something you have to do a little bit of research about, and you have to be clued up about and and you have to outline what you are willing to do. Like you said earlier, you have to know, what am I willing to tolerate? What am I willing to do for the long term in terms of how much time I can dedicate to it? Am I willing to do adult content, which is obviously a huge aspect of the industry, like, Am I willing to do political content, religious content, you know, outline your parameters, just in the way you do with all the other areas of of your voiceover work, make sure that you have those parameters in place so that when somebody emails you and says, I'm doing this book, it's 50 pound per finished hour. It's 80,000 words. I need it in two weeks. And you're like, thank you so much for considering me. But no no, not at all. Not No.

    Jo Troy 35:32

    Thank you for your time. It's been a pleasure. I will I even linked some of your audio books.

    Unknown Speaker 35:39

    I'm scared to check it out. They're gonna end up in this

    Jo Troy 35:48

    worry. I'll read that. Yeah, back. So what did I learn from today's conversation? If you don't like to read, when it's not for you? simple really. You can't do what you don't love. Or will you don't love will show on your recordings. So don't put yourself for. Audiobooks aren't all about silly voices and creating characters. There are so many genres that require different skills. So if you think one time isn't for you, there may be one out there that may be a better fit. Preparation in vO is key, but even more so intelligible. In most cases, you will be reading a book a couple times to get you to preschool read characters, and making any notes to make sure you execute the job perfectly. And finally, all job books definitely for the most part, will take longer than most jobs are when you were getting started, you may feel that the time spent on an audio book versus the payout isn't good enough. That isn't to say that you can't get paid well because you can't. What I'm saying is, you definitely have to have a passion for what you do to make it worth it. Thank you, Chris and really for contributing to the episode and an even bigger one to set up for sharing this experiences and take the time to speak with my guy. If you want to learn more about audiobooks. I have put some really useful links in the show notes you should definitely check out. Okay, I think that's all for this. Don't forget to leave a review, and I'll see you on the next episode. Until next time

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    We've all watched dubbed films at some point in our lives. Dubbing is the process of adding new dialogue or other sounds to the soundtrack of a motion picture that has already been shot. At some time, sometimes take it for granted. But you can definitely tell a bad dub film versus a good one. Dubbing is a thriving niche in voiceover acting right now, especially with the easy access of films as streaming platforms such as Netflix, Disney plus Prime Video to name a few. It's something that you may have considered doing, but had no idea how to get into it, or what skills or experience you may need. Look no further because today, I'm going to get these questions answered. I had the pleasure of speaking with actor , dubbing director and script adapter, James Wilson, who has worked on some amazing titles on Netflix, I asked him how he became a Dublin director, his process and how to get cost for a road.

    James 1:22

    Let's go. Okay, so I'm James Daniel Wilson. And I am a freelance adapter and director of UK English dubbing. Which basically means if you want to watch something on Netflix, or Amazon, or Disney or any of the streaming platforms, there's a lot of amazing, like, seriously good foreign content out there. You know, most people are aware of stuff, there's lots of big things that people have been aware of money heist, squared games, you know, all this fantastic foreign content. And if you want to watch that, but you want to hear it in English, you know, and that could be for a number of reasons, you know, that might be because you don't like reading subtitles, and you can't keep up with them. And you're like, you know, what, I just want to hear it in my language could be that you're listening to it on your phone, or, you know, watching it on your phone, and the subtitles are too small. It could be and I know this from a lot of experience that people have it on in the background now like TV, because it's, there's so much of it now that you know, a lot of people use TV like radio, actually, and don't watch it, but just listen to it. Now, you know, you can't you know, unless you speak Korean or you know, Spanish or whatever, you can't do that with with it with some of this amazing content. So what's happened, and it's really ramped up over the last few years is that, you know, a lot of content. And I would add, I don't know what the percentages are actually, I should ask him should ask Netflix, but it's a high percentage of stuff gets dubbed, and it gets dumped into so many languages. You know, you've got obviously for us, it's UK English, but it goes into Brazilian Portuguese, you know, French, German, Spanish, you know, Hindi? I guess it goes, you know, obviously, for a lot of English stuff that goes into Korean, you know, I mean, Mandarin, you know, so many languages, which is brilliant, because it's just opening up content. So if you were to go on on watch some fantastic foreign content that was dubbed into British English, chances are, it may well have been done by me or one of my colleagues. And yeah, and I adapt the script. So I get like, like a sort of rough translation of the script, I then completely tear that or, you know, deconstruct that and rewrite it into a better English script. And also the most important bit or one of you know, one of the equally important bits is the is the lip sync, so that it syncs as good as it can. And then it looks like potentially the person on screen was already speaking English, you know, and that's the gold standard. Right?

    Jo Troy 4:00

    What would you say that you? You know, would you say, the directing side of it? You fell into it? Or was it something that you always wanted to do?

    James 4:10

    No, definitely. Good. Good question. I mean, I guess, I guess I've it's not something I set out to do. So I set out to be an actor, you know, and that was always that goal. And then when you've been doing something a long time, I guess, I guess, you know, there are a lot of actor turned directors out there, not not within this field. But you know, within movies and TV, you know, a lot of actors go on to become directors. And I think, you know, there comes a time when you kind of go Yeah, I feel like now, I've been doing this long enough. And I've got a lot of stuff to give. And I feel that you know, I would be good on the other side of the glass as we say, you know, and doing that and hopefully, hopefully I am, but it just came about of like I say is this intensely it came about a few years ago. Previously, I've been doing it the adapting and the directing, just every now and again. You know, literally I'd get a call Oh, potentially, you know, a couple of times a year, you know, like, literally minimum, and I was just voicing all the time all the time all the time. And then suddenly someone go, oh, yeah, I've got this project, you know, it's, uh, it's, you know, I don't know, Arabic movie they want to make into, you know, they want to dope dub into English, do you want to do it? And I'd be like, yeah, cool, you know, and that would take me away for a month or two, you know, and I'd write it and then direct it and often be in it as well, you know, I'd give, you know, give myself a little partner or something. But it was just every now and again, and I kind of went, Oh, this is nice. And then Netflix came along. And obviously, we all know Netflix, and they're just, they're brilliant. They're at the forefront of this, the dubbing movement, really, and they just, they just give it the time. They you know, they give it the budget, they give it the respect that is due to this kind of work. And I started off with them. The first one I did for them was a show called criminal, which was a really interesting show. And it in itself, because it was it was filmed in four countries. So there was a UK version. That was with UK actors, David Tennant was in the UK version. And then there was a there were three episodes, then there were three episodes in Spanish, three in German, and three and French. And they were each filmed in their own country, with their own big actors, and they all use kind of David Tennant style actors, you know, big actors that have got a lot of heritage and TV and film and theatre. And it was kind of a big deal. And I just thought what a brilliant project. And then of course, Netflix went okay, this is so good. We need it this is we need to dub this obviously. So each each version each, you know, the French, the Spanish and the German was then also dubbed into English, the same as the English version would have been chopped in dumped into French, German and Spanish, etc, etc. And that was the first one and they just came to me via my dear friends Phoebe and J actually, because they originally approached them because they're, they're huge, you know, in in London, they're, they're the big guys. And they're just wonderful. And they were too busy. And they said, Look, to be honest, we would probably outsource it to James anyway. So why don't you just go direct. So I just had this call, and I had a chat with them. Who was actually on holidays great. When these things happened. I was on a holiday. So I had to, I had to zoom cut. I mean, they were in LA anyway. So you know, it could have been anywhere in the world. But I was on holiday, and I kind of sat down and had this meeting with them. And they were sort of really excited about the project. And they felt that I would be a good, you know, a good fit for it. And again, I kind of thought, wow, this is great. You know, this potentially could be the only, you know, this could be it. And I kind of didn't look at it as Oh, wow, this is the start of a new career. I just went brilliant, really excited and loved the idea of the project. And it was a really good one because it was just dialogue. So they were basically interview scenes. You know, it was just dialogue, there was barely any action or anything. So as far as kind of a project goes, it was kind of in at the deep end because it was like dialogue, you know, complicated. It was police investigations. And it was just brilliant. And I really just cut my teeth, you know, on that. And I I was suddenly you know, instead of it just being something that I did, I suddenly went Oh, wow. Okay, yeah. And I used a new piece of software to do the writing. And yeah, just kind of hit it hard. And it was just brilliant. You know, we got that we got an amazing cast on board on board. And Netflix flew over and kind of attended some of the sessions I was doing this was pre lockdown pre COVID Everything. So 2018 or 2019 2018? I think. So yeah, it was back in the day, you know, when everything was kind of open, and people came over and just love my my really enjoyed the sessions and kind of bought into my way of working, which was, like I say, really treating it with respect, and really kind of, you know, gone are the days of kind of what we call Bruce Lee dubbing. Right. And I'm sure everyone knows what that is. Yeah. I mean, when it's just lips flapping, there's a sound going. And it's you know, and we often say, you know, every now and again, we have a joke in the studio, and we're like, yes, Bruce Lee, let's go again, you know, because he's got to look good, you know, and that takes time. And it takes and it takes work, you know, the adaptation is the is the foundation. And if you get a you know, if you spend tight if I spend time doing that, then I get into the studio and I go okay, cool. I know it works, you know, so if if an actor is, you know, potentially struggling with a line or whatever, I can help them, you know, and I could because I know because I've kind of done it, you know, because I've adapted it, and then I'm going to direct I know how it works. And it just went from there, man. Yeah, yeah. Cool.

    Jo Troy 9:35

    You know, you said you basically kind of fell into it. So when you got that call to do your first adaptation. Yeah. What was that thought process and what skills do you think that you had or needed to acquire to become the person you are today in a job?

    James 9:56

    Yeah, nice. Well, like I say, so I'd been doing If I'd been doing it differently as the as the voice, so I'd been, you know, I'd been getting a call from the agent, we've got you a gig on this film or this whatever TV show, you know, you're playing this character, you know, and you've got this amount of lines, and, you know, so I've been doing that for 20 odd years. I'd also like I say, dipped in and out, and I'd probably done, I don't know, maybe 10 or 12, other projects, you know, intermittently, and I built up a, you know, a sort of CV and experience and all that kind of thing over that time. And then I think just when the call came in it, you know, you know what it's like, Joe, sometimes something just feels right. And I just kind of went up for this to remain, they've come to me, they've been recommended to me. And I just kind of went, Yeah, I, I feel like I can do it, you know, and also what was quite good, then, on that particular job was there was quite a lot of time. So I think I had a meeting, I don't know, maybe February time, it was quite early in the year. And then the project wasn't due to like, September. So I knew I had loads of time, you know, there was no pressure, I kind of knew I'd get the scripts and I'd get the, I'd get the movies or the you know, the episodes as it was on this one. And I'd have time and I and I'd have time to be with myself and kind of really make it work and go back and review things and, you know, hone that script. So it was really good. So that once I got into the studio, with the you know, with the amazing actors that I managed to get in it, you know, I knew that we'd be able to do it, and it would work. And I just felt that it was at that time when I'd kind of I'd done the groundwork, you know, like I said, I'd been both sides of the of the glass, a lot of the time being the actor. And and within sessions I'd been as the actor, there have been times when I'd seen things that I'd gone. If we just slightly tweaked that it's going to sink so much better. You know. And I think that was what the directors that I'd worked with had seen in me. And like I say, many years prior to that someone had said, you should start writing this stuff, you should, you know, you could adapt this. And like I say, that was a guy called Louis Elman, who gave me an opportunity many, many years ago, like 1520 years ago. And just when he go, and it was a scene I was working on with him, and he went, I'll tell you what, take this scene home and write it, you rewrite it. And we're going to record it next time you're in to record your role. We're going to record your version and the version that we've got, and we're going to see how it goes. You know, and yeah, I think my version was good. Interesting to know, be interesting. So whether they use my version or the other version back then, but you know, the point is, I showed that I could do it and and I enjoyed it, you know, it's like, it's like an it's like English mathematics. germane because it's, it's so precise. And so you know, there is a right and a wrong the web. No, there is no, that's No, there isn't no just I've completely backtracking. Now I'm doing a massive government U turn here. There isn't a right and wrong, but what it is, there's it's like a jigsaw. Okay, so, so like a jigsaw create, you know, a jigsaw fits in, right. And it's they're all different shapes and sizes, but they fit in to make a complete picture. That picture within dubbing can be different things. So those words can be different, but there's a way of fitting it in. So it looks and sounds beautiful. So yeah, it's kind of its kind of controlled chaos in a way and you just kind of have to pull them in. And, you know, sometimes in session, I'll be completely happy with something. But then I'll sort of go hang on just let's just tweak that, or let's do this, you know, and this has to do with the writing. And you'll make a simple change. And it will be like oh my gosh, it's like a different suddenly, that's perfect, you know, and also the placement of it, someone can record a line. And I can say to the engineer that's working with me, I can say that is perfect. Just nudge it a tiny bit to the left or tiny bit to the right, or forward and backwards, depending on who you're working with. And you'll go Daigo it fits in. And again, it's like so it's like that jigsaw thing again, you know, you could look at two pieces you go, I know they fit together. But if I put it in slightly too high, it's not going to fit if I put it in too low, or if I put it in the right place snug. And that's kind of what it's about. And that's why I like it the sort of, like I say, the formulaic side of it along with the art because then obviously the words have got to be real, you know, and they've got it it's got sound like an English script again, nowadays, the scripts are so much better. Because it's not just a like a translation. It's not, you know, yeah,

    Jo Troy 14:29

    I was I was gonna ask you to actually so when you want when you get this title and a script, they've given it to you. And it's in, you know, let's say Arabic. Yeah. And you've got to change it to English. Now, obviously, the languages everything about is completely different. Yes. build that. Yeah. That the message that you're trying to permit and also, what you may or may not be allowed to say what you're definitely process of You know, changing that script? And what are the hoops that you have to go through normally?

    James 15:04

    Yeah, good question. So, yeah, so things like, you know, yeah, because stuff can be, you know, sensitive, which obviously, we're always mindful of a Netflix actually will always give you guidance on stuff like that, you know, again, I've been working with Netflix pretty solidly now for three, three and a half years or something. So I have a very good relationship with them. And there's always an open dialogue. But yeah, fundamentally, you're getting you know, it's, again, it's kind of like an actor. For me, I think my acting background is so useful, because as an actor, you read a line, or you read a line of script, and you go, Okay, well, what's being said here, you know, like, literally, I need, it's not just lines and words, and, you know, I need to work out what's actually being said. So when you get that translated script, you know, like you say, from Arabic or German, or whatever it's from, I've got effectively, it's like a Google Translate, you know, so it's, sometimes it's a little bit unclear. And the scripts are different as well, sometimes, then, sometimes they've, they've, they've also been through a process before they come to me. So they're, you know, so they're better form of crude word, but you know, that I can sort of completely see what's trying to be said, sometimes they're not that, you know, they're less good. And therefore, I kind of have to, I sometimes go back and read google translate the original dialogue from Arabic or German or whatever. And I go, Oh, okay. So what they're actually trying to say is this, you know what I mean? So I've got to get the essence of the line, and the scene, and, and the show in its entirety. And I've got to understand the tone of the piece, you know, so that's the big thing. And then and then you then you go down to the minutiae of every line, and then you go, okay, cool. So what's he actually trying to say here? What are you trying to say? What what are they? What are they trying to get across in this line, from the Arabic into the English? Now, what I actually end up writing could be quite different. It could be, you know, it could be quite different from the direct translation. Because it might be something maybe they might be saying something. And I'm not talking like culturally different, I'm just saying they could be saying something completely, completely different, that in the UK, we would understand if they said, you know, such and such journal means so it's as much about understanding the essence of the line, as opposed to, you know, he walked into a room and says this, you know, it's, it's so so yeah, so it's a real journey of discovery. For me during the adaptation process, and then also in the directing process, because there are times when actors will say to me and be like, Man, what, what do you mean that and I'm like, Oh, okay. Okay, cool. Five minutes, here we go. So he said, this back then did, and sometimes I do check, you know, I do have to change it sort of quite a lot to, to make it feel relevant to a UK, or, or even a UK but an English speaking audience that are going to understand certain nuances and certain things within the British, UK British language. And then obviously, there's the American, you know, there's British, there's American British as well, which again, is American English, sorry, which is a whole different thing. You know, that's, again, there are certain words that I have to have discussions with Netflix about that you kind of go Yeah, but we, you know, we don't say sidewalk, we say pavement, you know, and

    Jo Troy 18:18

    so, so how long does the actual process take? And do you speak with people from that relevant country that the film is from to get like, you know, little answer your questions that you may have?

    James 18:30

    Definitely, definitely. So I The process takes so long, I can't tell you. And it's one of these things, every producer wants to be able to say, okay, so it takes this long to do this. It doesn't. Because it's you know, you might get one line, there's a line that you might go Yeah, bomb to done straightaway, you might then get another line. And I'm not even talking about the length of the line, you could get, you know, like three words. And they're saying something so specific, and it's right on their lips, and you go, I want to get this to be perfect. So you go round and round and round around. And then finally you get it. But that those three words could have literally taken you 10 minutes. Like I'm not even kidding. And then But then you might get a sentence, you know that you just have to go Oh, yeah, we just changed that for that. And that's, you know, there's a good word there and did it you know, I've got quite a, my brain is quite a thesaurus, you know, of words. I'm like, yeah, there's a word that. Yeah, I mean, again, it's part of the job, right. So it's really difficult, but the main thing is, it takes a long time. You know, it takes days, weeks, months. And like you say, Yeah, I'm constantly talking to people, you know, talking to my friends that speak various languages, or they're from other language, you know, from other countries. Because yeah, I think that's really important. You don't want to be saying anything that's culturally insensitive or also you in any you know, you want to be true to you want to be true to the original, but giving it that at UK, English slang as well. So it's, again, it's so many balls up in the air and you're just trying to get them and get them to land. Right, you know? So yes, it's a good process.

    Jo Troy 20:11

    Um, it's funny how you went onto that, actually, because you worked on a Fina? Is that correct? Yeah. JD hepco. So, I wanted to ask, is a French film? Correct? Correct. So when I watched the dubbed version in English, good, man. And when I was watching it, I was expecting a English speaking French person. Not a London. Okay. Yeah. And it kind of threw me off. Or sometimes, you know, you just have the generic American, you know, they just do that. Yeah. What was the thought process behind that choice?

    James 21:01

    I mean, this is so relevant now, depending on when you're listening to the podcast, but yeah, this is yeah, this is kind of the big one at the moment. And this went back and forth with Netflix loads, it was a big project for them. The I think the point is, with certainly with something like Athena is, it's it's such a powerful story. Yeah. Now, it's set yet in the suburbs of Paris. But those that suburb could be in London, could be in you know, it could be in America, it could be in Brazil, it could, it's one of those, you know, kind of stories that is everywhere, those areas, those areas of struggle between, you know, the law, and society, you know, and society, they exist all over the world. And I think the important thing, especially with with net with Athena, sorry, is that they wanted it to be so specific to each country. Okay. And that's, that's kind of I'm sort of answering your question, but I think that's the thing. I think when you when you do the dub, sometimes you can do the dub, and make it about the country you're dubbing for. So you make it into you know, we went very sort of southeast London on it, because it felt it felt like you know, lewd at the shots.

    Jo Troy 22:16

    It literally threw me off like, yeah, I put it on. I was like, I'm getting ready. I was like, Whoa, like, yeah, we was like something else. Like I enjoyed it. But it Yeah, it took me a while to climatized to Yeah.

    James 22:28

    And isn't that interesting. And what I love about that is it's really interesting that you went into it, expecting it to be French acts French speaking. Yeah, that's really interesting, because they do that sometimes. But interestingly enough, often those shows that well, actually, you know what it's not about, it's not a time thing. But they don't do that that often, basically, is what I'm going to say. So those are the shows that that happen less often where they go, okay, cool. So it's a German piece. So let's use German actors that can speak English. And let's do that. And that comes down to the fact that again, this is my assumption, and from sort of, obviously, talking to Netflix, you know, a lot over the last few years. It's an interesting one, because there's, for a lot of people that will sit down to watch a UK dub, they will expect UK voices to name so it's really because they speak in English. They're like, I want it to be an English, or that's, that's so so it's really it's, I'm fascinated by the fact that you expected it to be the opposite. I would say you are literally in the 5%. Which is great, right? It was better to be in the five, even a 5% and it went, Oh, what they're not friends. Yeah, it was.

    Jo Troy 23:47

    Yeah. Because, you know, I understand why because the feeling of it was very London. Yeah. And because I watch a lot of Dubs. Dog films from, you know, from Eastern Europe, from Asia from everywhere. Yes. When I hear the English dub, normally, it's normally with the accent of. Okay, so that's, yeah, that's, that's why, you know, I wanted to ask you that. As soon as I reached out, I want to ask you,

    James 24:17

    before we go anywhere else, why are there no French? Nobody's really interesting. Because I've done I've done you know, like I say, I have done loads that have been like that. But out of the sort of, I don't know, 25 or whatever films and season, you know, series and things I've done, I would say probably only about, Gosh, I don't know, four, three or four of them have been sort of English speaking natives. So you know, so English speaking Germans dubbing German into German, sorry, into German. Yeah. So it's very much the minority that of the shows that do that. So it's yeah, it's quite fascinating, really.

    Jo Troy 24:54

    And when you do find the voices that you do want like what is the process of costing I'm back.

    James 25:01

    So basically, we, again, it depends on the show depends on the way. Yeah, it just depends on the show, basically, we'll have a cut will have a casting session or have casting sessions with a number of actors. But I also have a pool of actors that obviously I've worked with over the years, the studio that I, the studio that I worked from, as well, they also have a load of actors that they know from, from other dubbing things or games or corporate thing or whatever, really, so So some of the roles are just offered straight out to actors. And we're like, you know, we've seen you in such and such, or we've heard you, or James has worked with you before, we'd love you to do this. And then they come in for a lot of the lead role. So like, in Athena, we had a casting session for certainly all the brothers. I think we and basically, most of the main gang, if you like, came in, met with me, you know, went through the process, because what's also great as well, as we're getting, because of the volume of titles that are out there, and the volume of work, we are managing to get in a load of new actors, which is brilliant, you know, we're getting people that come on board, and, you know, and I'm like, so have you done this before, and they're like, I've never done it before, I've always wanted to do it. This is my first time. And I love that as a director, I love it. Yeah, because it's like, welcome. It's like bringing them in welcome, bring them into like a secret room and go, here you go, man, this is, this is what happened, this is how we do it. And that, and the passion I you can hopefully it's coming across, but I'm quite passionate and, you know, quite an energetic person. And I love kind of sharing that with other actors and bringing them in. But yeah, for the bigger, you know, for the lead roles, if you like, well definitely have a casting session. Because also, it's about how well, you know, it's about how well the voice fits. And it's amazing, it's like anything, you could you could get the best actor in the room. But the voice doesn't work for some reason, you know, they can act it, you know, like slight visual stuff, you know, you could be the best actor, but if you don't look right, for whatever reason, you know, it's not going to work. And it's exactly the same with dubbing, you know, we get some fantastic actors in. And then they're not quite right for that role. But maybe there'll be right for another role, you know, but they'll come in, and they'll watch that they'll watch the scene that we're going to do with them, they'll have the script there. The software we use means that the script rolls across, it's like a band that rolls across the bottom of the screen, okay. And it's been time said that you kind of speak along with it. And if you speak at the right pace, and everything that the band dictates pretty much gonna sink at the end, and then the engineer and I will then play with it. And yeah, and the casting process is very much that and then obviously, we then make the selections. And then once they're in, then we go back and do the whole thing. And it's always fun doing the sea naval audition. Weird, right? Because they're kind of like, oh, yeah, I remember this one. Yeah. Sometimes I start with that. So like, okay, let's redo that. And, you know, but yeah, so there's very much a casting process. And, yeah, and then once you've done, like, I say, once, once, once you've done one often? Yeah, like everything in life?

    Jo Troy 28:07

    How do you advertise? And what are you looking for in new actors?

    James 28:13

    Nice. So, advertising, we don't really do. Because it's, it's very much a, it's a casting process that will, you know, we, the casting department, depending on where I am, will reach out to actors directly or agents. So we don't really have a, you know, there's not like a casting call or anything like that. We'll just approach people, you know, and that, whether that be to approach them to come in and audition for us, or whether it will be approaching them to come in and yeah, do a role for us. But it's very much a case of that, you know, we will make that approach. But having said that, and obviously, this is what every actor and you know, we all want to hear. You can always you know, you people can always get in touch, you know, you're brilliant, reaching out, you know, you reached out to me and I was like 100%, let's do this, you know, because it's, it's great, right? You know, I didn't, I wasn't thinking I want to do a podcast, you know, you reached out and I'm like, Yeah, brilliant. And it's exactly the same, exactly the same in casting, you know, there isn't going to be a notice, you know, or an email or something on the website saying we are casting for this, but you might get in, you know, you might send them an email, you know, the various casting people in town and say, that I'm really up for this. This is my real, you know, and that might drop on their desk at the right time. Yeah, you know, or it might drop on their desk at the wrong time, but they might hear something and go, Yeah, okay, great. Let's keep Joe on, you know, on file, and then they'll come back to another time, you know, and that's, that's the way our business works. Right. You know, it's about being being in the right place at the right time. Or just getting in just getting on the bus, you know, and being in being in the mix of voices that can be called on you know, so

    Jo Troy 29:55

    yeah, man. Yeah. Um, if if there is anyone out there who's listened to the podcast that, you know, once they get into dubbing, either, you know, doing what you do or acting? Is there any resources out there that you could recommend or things they can check out?

    James 30:13

    Cool. That is a good question. I mean, I would go straight away, I'd say watch, watch some stuff on Netflix. Yeah, seriously, watch what's you know, watch Athena? Watch. There's just my newest ones just come out. Remake of All Quiet on the Western Front, which is world war one war movie. And again, English actors speaking in English. We did think about it. English actors speaking with English accents, but Yeah, watch it and kind of go, oh, okay, I get it, you know, and go ask, see what they did that, you know, and maybe have this maybe, maybe dip in and out as well of the English in the original, you know, the German or the French or whatever. And just see, you know, what we do and how we make it work and how and how it fits in how the dub is is is, you know, is faithful to the original. And, and he's basically another version, I often say to the actors, you're coming in, and you're Don't you know, you have to be loyal to the, to what we're seeing on screen and the original performance, but you're doing your own version of it, right? theatres, look at a theatre show, a theatre, theatre script has probably been performed, depending on what it is anything from twice, 200 times, the script is the same, right? But the actors come in, and they bring something else and they bring, they bring something fresh, and they bring something to the character. And I think that's the other deal as well, back in the day. Dubbing kinda used to be a voice that was over a face, and it just used to be like, oh, yeah, this is this is what the actors saying, you know, and, you know, if there was a kind of a disconnect between the dubbing actor's voice and the actual role, it was just seen differently in the time spent, you know, in the technology, there was lots of barriers. Now, it's very much about you coming in and inhabiting that role, and being that and playing that role, you know, you're only playing it vocally. But you are playing that role. You know, by the end of the film, I want you to feel like you've gone. Wow, I've been on that journey. And I you know, I know that character. Funnily enough, an actor I've just worked with said exactly that. Just when I, it's bizarre, but I kind of feel like I was in the film. And I kind of feel a kinship with the other actors in the film, both the actors on screen and the voice actors. And I'm like, yeah, totally, that you totally should, you know, when is the director kind of go? Yeah, I directed that film. Of course, I didn't originally directed it, but I kind of feel like I've put my heart and soul into it. And I kind of feel like I've, you know, I kind of feel like I yeah, I've played a small part in making that movie, what it is, you know, and also accessible, that's the main thing is accessible to so many more people. You know, Athena, for example, was ended up getting to number one in the world. But yeah, for non thanks, man, thanks for not, you know, for non English movies. So there were loads of movies that were well above it, that were originating already in English, but for non English, it got to number one, and just that itself is great. Because there's, you know, hundreds of 1000s, dare I say, millions of people that are watching that movie, because they can, you know, because they might have just gone I didn't want to watch it in French. I don't want to watch the subtitles. You know, some of those people that watched it might have watched it with subbies. I don't know, I don't know, the figures, you know. But the point is, if you dub something and it's done, well, more people are going to watch it because there's going to be people that want to watch the dub, right? And that's, that's what we're aiming for. Gosh, I don't know five. I don't know if I answered your question or you basically watched up that was, how do we get watched up because you'll learn you'll learn just you know, and hopefully you'll enjoy it as well and kind of go okay, the amount of people actors that come in, but also friends of mine, you know, non actor, friends of mine, and actor friends of mine that you know, used to go out and watch the dub that now go, oh, my gosh, you know, I watched that W did OR, or NOT one of mine, whatever, you know, but they go Yeah, I see how it works. Now, you know, and if you get pulled in within the first few minutes, before you know it, you go Yeah, I bought into it. I you know, it's no longer a case of Oh, the lips didn't match or, you know, you start going Yeah, I love this and I completely buy it. And you know, it's like it's like when people you know when money heist, which like I say I didn't do as an American dub. It's like when people watch that there's so many seasons. Every night you know, people sort of talk about our flicking on the Spanish they're like, no, no, the voices aren't right. They're dead sound like that. They sound like the dub and of course, of course they don't but because and that's the same with you know anything if you watch it and you kind of give it a go. Before you know it, you believe it and you're in it and you're watching the movie and enjoying the movie for what it should be watching the movie.

    Jo Troy 34:54

    Actually, yeah, I don't even know it's double.

    James 34:56

    Exactly. You're not judging the technicalities of it. Exactly. That Joe and that's that's what it's all about, you know, and that's our goal.

    Jo Troy 35:02

    Well, thank you, James. I've had a lot of fun. Yes, he and I've learned a lot and I'm sure a lot of people have as well. Thanks, Joe. Hope to Yeah, work maybe in the future you never know.

    James 35:14

    You never know. You never know. I don't see why not, man. Thank you Take it easy.

    Jo Troy 35:23

    So what did I learn for today's conversation? If you're thinking of being a Dublin director or script adapter, you need to have an understanding, interpreting scripts and the background of acting, you definitely need to have a passion for it. And it's not for the faint of heart as adapting scripts can be very laborious. costly, mostly comes from agents but not exclusive. So if you are not on any agencies, this may be very difficult but not impossible. Due to the amount of streaming services and titles being released. There were always a need for new actors all the time. Finding is not out of the question to reach out to some directors directly. Just don't be annoyed. Thank you to James for taking time out to chat. If you want to contact him or myself with any thoughts, questions, just to say hi, we'll find out details below. That's all for this. Remember to always subscribe. See you next time.

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy and I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Radio presented arrays your presenter is a person who has an on air position in radio broadcasting. We've all listened to the radio at some time in our life and all have our favourite presenters and favourite radio shows. This is an area I've always wanted to know more about with so many voiceovers coming from this world or going into it. I wanted to know more. I want you to learn about the skills needed to be successful in radio, transferable skills between the two roles and ways to develop. Today's adventure is about you guessed it, Ranger presenting and I'll be speaking with the award winning radio presenter and host Rebel London.

    Yeah, so how are you good?

    Remel 1:12

    Yeah, I'm good, man. I'm good. Nice. Hey, went off. Can you hear me? Yeah, I've been good just yet.

    Jo Troy 1:18

    As you can see by my by your voice your voice sounds is your voice like that? How'd you like raspy, raspy

    Remel 1:27

    Ah yes, a little bit. It's a little bit raspy than usual today. Um, yeah, I did a voiceover earlier. I did a voiceover is that yeah. It's been like voiceovers being out events and stuff. So yeah, it's been doing to practice yesterday, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that was for

    a show I do on CBC the voice. So yeah, it was good. We didn't win. But it was it was really, really, really good. So that was a nice experience. So yeah, how have you been? I've been Yeah, working just

    Jo Troy 2:03

    as great busy. Trying to Yeah, just trying to be great. Like you, you know, Hey, you are great. You go great already.

    So as I always do that, for the guests to introduce themselves and what it is you do?

    Remel 2:19

    Cool. So my name is Remel, London. I am a TV radio presenter voiceover artists as well as host. So you can currently find me on Capitol extra a voice a show on CBBC called gem stars. And I'm literally everywhere when it comes to hosting around London, the UK, all that good stuff.

    Jo Troy 2:40

    So how did it all start for you? How did you get into radio presenting.

    Remel 2:46

    So I went the really traditional route, I went to the University of Leeds, I studied broadcast journalism, I really knew I wanted to do TV and Radio Broadcasting.

    The main thing is that I knew I wanted to be a performer of some kind, it was just figuring out what and I originally was like a musical fit ago, acting, singing, dancing, all that kind of stuff. I did athletics as well, which was really like quite a big part of my my late teenage life. But it felt like it was really easy for me to be on screen, be behind a mic, like, those kinds of things were really easy. Whereas like acting, singing and dancing, it requires a lot of training and a lot of rehearsal time and all that kind of stuff. And radio, without sounding like you know,

    full of myself, it was just something I found really easy and fun. So it didn't really require that much like, you know, hype to get me confident behind the mic. So that was something I really, really enjoyed. And so glad I did it uni as well.

    Jo Troy 3:55

    Do you feel the? No, you said that it was pretty natural to you? Do you think that's also in tandem with the training you were getting? Or do you think is just something that was in you all the time.

    Remel 4:08

    I will say while I was at uni, I didn't enjoy the course because it wasn't as performance base as I thought it was more theory. So we learned a lot about, you know, documentary making, which I'd love now I'm grateful for now, but at the time, I was like when am I getting in front of the camera? When am I getting behind the mic? So we were learning how to set up like you know, equipment we were learning like I'm talking Tripod Camera, and I'm like, I do not care. I'm not going to be doing that. But in the long run it helped me so much because especially when I left uni and there weren't jobs present a job straight away. I had to do like you know, be a runner or be a film assistant. I had to do the research for shows. And then I was a very much Do It Yourself YouTube girl. I was setting up my own equipment and like even now when I do voiceovers and all that kind of stuff. If I didn't know how to use Adobe edit audio

    You know, that kind of stuff, I probably wouldn't be able to be as accessible as I am now, because I record a lot of the content that I make at home, myself, I have the equipment already know what I'm doing so that, that training and skill in terms of like how equipment and light productions work was vital and crucial for where I am now

    Jo Troy 5:27

    was wise, you would ultimately need to know what happens behind the camera before you jump in front of it.

    Remel 5:35

    I mean, it depends, it really does depend. But I think because of the generation we're in now, content creation is the easiest, quickest way for you to get in. So if you have a microphone, if you have software, you can start whenever you want. And that's the thing I've said too many people like, get a mic, like just get a mic for your house. start practising, you might feel a bit crazy, but like find some scripts online. And like you can try and do it yourself. You can make your own demo and like, you know, again, doing work experience in a radio station doing work experience on a TV set, you get to understand what is expected of you what every job is because I think as well a lot of people don't know what roles are even available to them. So sometimes you have to be on set just to see oh, okay, there's a floor manager, a producer, assistant producer. The research like some people don't realise that researchers can actually be the majority of how a show is made. They found out everything.

    So you know, you might think oh, the person behind the camera or the person editing the person presenting might be the main star know, before you even get on set. There's probably been a month of work done. So you know, sometimes prepare yourself by being that research or being that editor get get in the studios get in the in the editing suites, you can learn a lot more.

    Jo Troy 7:03

    Do you remember your first interview?

    Remel 7:07

    Oh, interview with an artist? No, Justin. Just anything? Yeah. Well, I started at linkup TV. So that was a big part of my my journey. So I remember the first day I was filming with linkup TV I interviewed mercs didn't see Star and baby blue. And they were like, killing it at a time where

    I mean, that was proper, like, you know,

    London grime and rap culture. So

    three of those in one day, I just had to prep prep, prep, get there and be like, cool. bang them out. Three in a row. And it was great. It's great. It's such a great experience. Do you still have it to hand or access to it? It's all on YouTube. Every single is on YouTube. Fortunately, I'm sure it was.

    Jo Troy 7:57

    Well, it's funny, it's funny, when you look at stuff, you know where you've come from. And at the time, you know, you will probably so excited and so proud of what you were doing. And I'm sure you still are but you can just looking back at these things. Sometimes he's just like, wow, have come such a long way. You know, definitely. I mean, I really appreciate that. I was a part of the UK music culture at a very early stage. So that is something I'm really proud of, like I saw, you know, krept and Konan before they blew I sort of Stormzy before he blew, I saw a lot of artists before they blew. So that is such a like, you know, testament to how how deep the culture goes and like you know, I again, I wasn't even not always at the very start we were catching them while they were like bubbling and buzzing so that could have already been like there for years deep and we got first interviews with them and that's the first time they were online and stuff. So it is really nice to know that we we paid a big part in like creating or documenting rather, UK rap for UK, r&b, UK grime, culture.

    People we see people are above rager presenters on Instagram and social media and YouTube and it looks so glamorous, right? Do you want to go through actual day in the life or morning in the life if you're doing a morning show? Tired of the truth or let the low what you go through to be great. So

    Remel 9:31

    how I start a day it depends on the day is every day is different for me, because I'm a

    radio broadcaster because I'm a TV broadcaster, live Ventos VoiceOver is everyday could be a mixture of any of those. But for example, let's say for example, last week, was a good day

    okay, actually no

    less, I'll give you a different scenario. So, voiceovers, usually they're at home. So I'll get sent the script, I'll get sent, the visual that is going to accompany so if it's like for example, I do a lot of voiceovers for Dave, which is a comedy channel.

    I will watch the video, there'll be a guide read on the video so I know exactly what kind of tone they want. But of course, they'll give a description as well of how they want me to say it. Usually for me if it's a promo, Dave, add a bit cheeky, bit bubbly, but usually fast paced, because it's usually in an outlet. That's kind of thing. So download that, set up your my mic set up my Adobe Audition to record, sometimes the producer will accompany me online. So I ever use

    source Connect, which is a software where you can record they can record from their end, but it's a bit dodgy. So I always record a backup. And also,

    they might be on Zoom. So we might have a little chat, a little discussion about it. And again, they can show me the visual on screen. And then they pretty much say off you go. Now because I record at home, I actually record under a DV

    industry standard doovy.

    I have found that a lot of soundproofing doesn't work for me, I have literally done majority of my industry standard recordings under said doovy to the point where a production company actually asked what quality and or is it they call it? The type of DVD.

    He said know what what duvet use because it's actually amazing. And I was I just bought it from Matt is even know I bought it from Wilco. And then when we need to know what do you got.

    But I have found like I've got I've got so many different that I've got this studio spares. If you see if you've seen this before, yeah, yes, bears foam, foam cover for my mic. Honestly, it doesn't do as great a job as my duvet. So you'll usually find me under my duvet recording, I can usually do

    two, three page scripts and maybe five to 10 minutes, do two to three versions of that. And then that's usually how I get that done. Save it up, send it over, we transfer it as we transfer as my preferred

    option. And that's the voiceover on the alternative for radio don't need to do I go into the studio. Capital extra is is based in Leicester Square. So I usually get there I give about an hour. Before I go on air to prep. What I mean by prep is we usually have to do App Links. Not all stations do this, um, but I'm pretty sure majority of the stations at global, which is our company do this, we have an app called global player, which means that you can listen to the show

    wherever you are on the app, but also it means you can

    skip songs. And so because you're skipping songs of live radio, we have to pre meditate that they're going to need to listen to us still. So we encourage them to still listen to the songs, but we let them know you can skip if you want to hear something different. And we give them options. We give them extra light inside about the radio station, that kind of stuff. So that is a very capital extra like secret behind the scenes thing.

    Jo Troy 13:44

    What the global player was, like, I just I play it was just the just the number department in global that created certain content. I didn't know there was actual outlaw player with it that, you know, yeah. So it's a platform like Spotify, like Apple, where you can listen to podcast, however, for all of the stations. So that's Capital Radio X, classic LBC, heart, gold, they are all on the global player as well. And you can listen to all of these stations whenever you want.

    Remel 14:24

    But specifically because they want to give, you know, calculation listeners choice, you can choose different songs to listen to. And so with the skip feature, we have to have links prepared so that they know they're still listening to capsulation. And they're still listening to me. So you can kind of tell them, Oh, you're listening to cancer so you can catch me on the live side. Or you can carry on listening and pick whatever tunes you want. Okay, so that's a little fun thing. So we always have to prep for that every show is mandatory that we do that. And then on top of that, I'm looking for news looking for what's going on. Because my show is on a Saturday afternoon

    Keep it very light, and based around the music. So if I've got, you know,

    the new Stormzy track on there, we're going to talk about we're going to hype up this the track the album, gonna hype up the music videos and give you content and news around storms in what he's up to. So yeah, we usually just have fun. I don't have a producer for my show. So it's literally just me in the studio, having a party and chatting to people all over the world.

    Jo Troy 15:30

    And, um, you touched upon voiceover before. Was that something that you always wanted to try out? Or was it just a natural progression, you know, from what you already do?

    Remel 15:43

    Voiceovers was very accidental for me. I really wanted to be on air. And when I first did work experience at a local community radio station called bang radio in northwest London. I was at begging them to be on air. They didn't have slots, didn't trust me, I was young, they were just like, please, whatever, just be in the system for now. But they did like the sound of my voice. So they asked me to do a few ads here and there for the station. And because it's community radio, it's just a favour. But then it got to the point where they asked me to voice majority of the ads, majority of the intros jingles and I was like,

    wait a minute, I am the voice of this nation. And that's when I started realising that voiceovers could be something I could do.

    That progressed, I then made it got one of the editors to meet me a show reel because I was like, this is something I can use. And then, funnily enough, again, the same thing happened. Like, again, very accidental, sort of doing work experience at global Capital FM. Twice a fan, which isn't our capital extra. I was doing work experience there. Same thing happened again, in the building. They were like, Can we borrow your voice? Can we borrow you? Can we borrow you? Or your? Yeah, it was literally Oh, no, you wouldn't mind doing this for us reminding this. Yeah. And I'm like, Okay. And then the station manager of choice FEM at the time, sat me down, and he was like, right. I'm gonna be honest with you. Your voice is perfect. Yeah, we want to make you the voice of choice for him. And I was like, whoa, okay, cool. So he offered to pay me looking back. It was a disrespectful fee.

    But hey, I had never been paid for my voice at the time. So I was very happy with it. full transparency. I was getting 200 pounds a month. And I was recording probably because I was there every day, Monday to Friday. I was recording probably three times a week. So yeah, if we all know the standard fee. Yeah, I was being bumped. Yeah. So but again, I made sure row got there just to make a show real again. Boom, I have a show reel for a lot. You know that time it's just a London station, which is great.

    It kept on happening. Same thing again, BBC One extra. When I left capital, BBC One extra asked me to do the same little bit or they were paying me per per edit bargain. Or per record wasn't great.

    I won't era

    stations exist. At least twice of them didn't exist. It doesn't exist anymore. Even though it's conversation now. It's different now. But fees away bail on the cable. But But

    at that point, that's when I knew draw the line. I am officially a voiceover artists, three stations under my belt.

    I started putting my voice reel out there. And a few years later, I joined Sue Terry voices. Wow. And you're still with them. Correct? Yep. Still with Seto voice his daily, pretty much daily recordings at the minute. So it's great. It's great. So you're out here I'm sure I've probably heard your voice actually go and Dave actually know that you said Oh, do you watch DAVE Oh, then I see the adverts. Okay, watch it. But I see the adverts occasionally. So yeah, I always I have this fun little game I play every time I see an advert on YouTube or wherever I tried to recognise the it's just a voice.

    I will say, yeah.

    Jo Troy 19:19

    So formed, you know, back to the radio stuff. If there was anybody listening that wanting to start their journey or is in the middle of their journey. What's one piece of advice that you would give them?

    Remel 19:33

    I definitely,

    highly recommend you listen to the radio.

    And I say that because

    you recognise that certain stations have certain styles. So I have for example, started off my broadcasting career on community radio and pirate radio. Do what you want, say what you want. You know, you plan your show however you want. You realise when you get to know

    National Radio, for example, I was on one extra for a while. And you have a producer that encourage you to like, do links, and a link is a, you know, the talking time segment, they encourage you to do links three to five minutes telling stories, feedback from the audience, you know, getting them to call me text me did.

    As much as we do that at Capital extra capital, which is a commercial station. We focus on music, ads, and quick in and outs. So we're just keeping you company whilst you enjoy the music. Whereas sometimes BBC, more like, you know, relaxed radio stations, they can talk, they can chill, they can, you know, go with the flow, they don't have ads, they don't, they're not rushing to get to a time. So calves, which is really fast paced, so our links will probably be for me, personally, my most average link is probably like 30 seconds to a minute, but more on the 32nd side. So from one extra to come to extra, I realised the difference in style, you have to be quick, you need to be short, you need to get to the point. And it's almost like, I see it as like being a comedian, you need to know your punch line. Yeah, you need to know you're out. You need to know you're in that, you know, you can make it as funny as you want. You can make it as short as you want. I love this song. Like it's passion. So I say listen to the station, you see yourself being on and adopt that style, not copy people, because that's not what it is. But you will know that we all have a style, we all have a a a way of delivering information on that station that you've chosen to listen to. So listen to the stations, as much as possible. Listen to broadcasters and hear the way they tell stories hear the way they go in and out. Because it's really important. And

    yeah, I would say get as much experience in the radio studios as possible. I'm not saying you have to jump on air straightaway. But get work experience wherever you can, whether it's, you know, community radio, online radio, there's so many stations. Now, if you can get yourself in a big national radio station, like at the BBC, or global or something like that. Even better are bow Arcus or those stations. But

    any radio experience is a stop. So yeah, get in there, see how the studio's work how the stations work and understand the culture of radio.

    Jo Troy 22:27

    Yeah, it's a scary place, actually, if you don't know any of that stuff, because I way back when kind of looked into that side of things. And it's kind of going back to what you said initially. Like, there's so many jobs within radio. And I was like, Okay, listen to watch me. Let me dip out for a bit. Yeah, if it's meant to be it will be but it's yeah, it's definitely you have to research as much as you can. Because the more you know, the best that he puts you in especially when you know for example, if you do get asked to do voiceovers or you're getting paid towards your powder, but you'd be like wait a bit, you know, yeah, yeah. Know where you stand. So yeah, definitely. Yeah, I definitely agree with you just the research and and just getting to grips with your sound and the station sounds so yeah, that's, that's awesome. Thanks for that. But um, no, yeah, so I'll be we're near the end. So I've got some quick questions to ask you. Right. Okay. First one.

    What has been your favourite interview to date?

    Remel 23:28

    Favourite interview today is with common Hip Hop legend. That was for showers on Skywarn. Good, what's up TV and we were just chillin. We're just chatting about his career music films. And he was just so down to earth so honest. And like he put a big knee up. He was like, Yeah, I really enjoyed this. I

    love that. When when when your interviewee loves your interview style, your conversation is such a compliment. So yeah, that was massive. was exactly the same as you imagined them to be. Yeah, I mean, he is like, you know, the sexy uncle.

    He very, it's very, very charming. So it was really genuinely like a pleasure to be in his presence because he was so relaxed and cool. So yeah, definitely.

    Jo Troy 24:15

    Okay, what is the most interesting person you've interviewed? Uh, what I mean by that is they actually surprised you. You didn't expect to get that kind of either energy or store your vibe out of that person.

    Remel 24:30

    I would say Trey Songz. This was years ago.

    I was very conscious that, you know, at the time, I'm probably still now, he was a pretty big sex symbol to a lot of women. And I was very conscious that I didn't want to have a sexy interview. Yeah. And I just went in there with chat banter. And I thought he could either take it one or two ways, but like he was very, very on banter as well. And he wanted to

    have a laugh and he wanted to be like children, because I was worried that he was just going to try and like, sexualize everything. Not saying that like he's going to be attracted to me or anything like that, or, or vice versa. I weren't trying to be like, you know, seducing him in an interview, I just wanted to know, like, Yo, what's like, What's life like for three songs. And he was very open, which was really cool. And he I feel like he gave us some nice little nuggets, which was at the time was huge. For me. It was an online interview filling up TV. We didn't have big American celebs at the time. So that was great. It was really good. Yeah, I remember Trey Songz where I wonder what he's doing now.

    Jo Troy 25:39

    This is really thrown be back. This whole talk is just like, wow, what this person did that wasn't yesterday. Oh, wow. Okay. Who is your dream interview? That you would like to interview that you haven't?

    Remel 26:00

    Even after all the controversy this year, Will Smith definitely top of my list.

    I've always admired him as a actor, for what he's done in the TV world. Like you know, freshman's wll was such a huge, iconic part of my life. And I think for a lot of young black people's lives like to see such a beautiful family represented in such a good way.

    That was major for me, and just how he transitioned from being a music artists, to actor to personality. I'd love to know more. And like, yeah, I genuinely was always his biggest fan. I'm still on the fence about how I feel about all the Chris Rock situation. But that'd be great to talk about.

    You talking about that in a moment? I think he apologised. He apologised for it. And he said he reached out to Chris Rock. Chris Rock, like declined. So I feel like that's still a TO BE CONTINUED kind of story. But now he's focusing on like, doing more films and work.

    Jo Troy 27:03

    I don't know if his career is going to, like be revived the way it was. But we'll see. We'll see. I want to talk to him by the world has a short memory these days? Yeah. So that, you know, yeah, also, I'm sure it will happen. And I look forward to hear it, it will see it. Oh, no, thank you. Have you got anything going on that you need to tell the world about?

    Yeah, that we should go out for?

    Remel 27:27

    I have a podcast called the mainstream. I also have, it's also part of a creative platform called the mainstream as well. We're on Instagram, on Twitter, on LinkedIn. And it's all about sharing very similar to this podcast, all about sharing insight into the creative industry. We've been doing a lot of events coverage recently, which is amazing red carpet interviews. And we seem to be thriving in this space of just, you know, getting access to places that you know, a lot of people that want to get into the industry can now get get access to so we're planning on doing loads of events. Next year, the podcasts will be be returning for season three. So please look out for that and follow at the mainstream UK on all platforms. So go check it out, people. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you presence on my screen. People can't see you. But yeah,

    Jo Troy 28:25

    thank you. And yeah, good luck with your finances through I'll be bumping into you at some point anyway. So yeah, thank you. And good luck with everything.

    Remel 28:32

    Thank you. And I just want to say thank you for giving a platform for voiceover artists. Again, as you've as you've kind of heard, we don't always get to talk about this part of our careers and a lot of us are doing multiple jobs, you know, multiple streams of income our thing, but I think it's really nice that you're putting a focus on voiceovers, so thank you for that.

    Jo Troy 28:58

    Now, what did I take away from today's conversation?

    As we've all professions, remember, it's a marathon not a sprint. And it is a multifaceted industry with a lot of moving parts.

    Be patient.

    Listen to the rager. I know that different kinds of stations and presenters out there. Every station has a different style to learn from others. And finally, community and online radio is a great place to learn the ropes and allows you to learn the fundamentals such as production, links, hosting, etc.

    Going back to the first point, but remember, it's a marathon not a sprint. So starting with community and online ratios will give you the perfect experience to build up to one day being on national radio.

    Thank you

    to reMel for taking time out to speak with me today and everyone for listening. If you want to check out more on Gmail and all the great work she's doing, I'll put some links below, along with my usual info and all that good stuff. Another adventure in the back. Remember to subscribe and spread the word, and I'll see you next time. Bye

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Have you ever been watching TV and wondered why there's a person speaking at the end and beginning of every programme? We're looking no further. Not only am I going to find out why, but I'm going to be finding out who they actually are. Well, one of them anyway, today's adventure is about continuity analysis. A continuity announcer is someone who introduces for next programme on a radio or television station, historically, in the UK anyway, I remember hearing them on TV channels like ITV and Channel Four. But of course, there's so many stations now but there's infinite outlets and opportunities out there. Today, I'll be speaking with the multitalented Jemma McCarthy presenter host and most importantly, continuity announcer currently at e4 and Channel Four, I want to find out what it takes to become a continuity announcer their day to day and more.

    Jemma 1:24

    So see you nice to speak to you already.

    Jo Troy 1:27

    We know each other already. That's a wonderful world of the Internet. So yeah. Joining me today, I've got a lot to learn from you. So

    Jemma 1:38

    I can't believe that's true. You're the award winning prey?

    Jo Troy 1:42

    Just the about. But yeah, yeah. So today, I just wanted to just ask you some questions about the word of continuity. Of course, we'll jump straight into it, because then we can just chat amongst ourselves afterwards. But um, yeah, as you know, just wanting to get you to introduce yourself and let people know who you are.

    Jemma 2:02

    Yeah. So I'm Jemma McCarthy. And I guess I'm a presenter and continuity announcer trying to be a VO. But yeah, it's all kind of working out and freelancing in the world right now. Which is a journey, but it's a very fun one.

    Jo Troy 2:20

    So you say you've got you've, you know, you're presenter and all of the above? What made you go into the world of continuity?

    Jemma 2:28

    Yeah, so TV is something that I've always wanted to do forever. And it kind of feels like a brick wall. Right? Like trying to get into the TV industry. It feels impossible. Like how, like, what jobs are there for you, especially if you're trying to do presenting, trying to voiceover you're trying to do something where you're actually like, on the screen creating something fun. You don't need to know how to do it. And then I actually saw an ad for it. And I was like, You know what, I hadn't even considered continuity. I didn't even know that existed. I knew that like there were voices on telly, but you kind of they kind of get lost in the background, like, you know, they're there, but you don't really think too much of it. So when I saw the job advertised, I was like, Oh, my God, this is exactly what I'd like to do. And that was it, really. But TV is something I've always wanted to do. And this element of it, it just kind of is just fallen to me at all. But yeah, it was a surprise to me.

    Jo Troy 3:23

    Okay, so you saw the advert wherever you saw it. Yeah, what was the hiring process? Because I would assume is different from getting just a general voiceover job, you know, an agent, or you might see an advert or wherever, but this was, I would assume a lot more rigorous in terms of the hiring process. Yeah, my

    Jemma 3:43

    understanding because it's a channel for that I do continuity, and they're hiring again now. And I can see that there's so many people applying and there's it's quite a lot because people are messaging me like, What do I do here? Because a lot of people don't understand what continuity is. So the first thing you have to do, I saw this job advertised, but actually a full time job I saw advertised, and I believe that's how it works. For most continuity, they have a core team, I think it's just how it works most. But for Channel Four, you have a core team of people, I think there's like six, seven of them. And they do sort of everything in the continuity bubble. And then outside of that they hire a lot of freelancers. So the job that I saw was for Jr. Continuity. And that's the process I applied for. And there's actually a job going for that right now as well. And it was a case of you had to send in three different types of audio had to do one for Channel Four, one for E four. And then you had to say what you love about the channel and everything. So once you've recorded that, send that all in. There's the audition process, which is a fun one. So you go into the channel for building, sort of go downstairs to all the studios and then they for me, they said you've got I think it's 30 minutes. And we want you to write these scripts for for all these different things and they give you a whole paper full of programmes. You'd never necessarily watch before and you had to write these scripts out. And they'd sort of test you like, they're throwing words like write an ident for this, like, write any credits for that. So you sort of have to figure out where it differentiates. Write a script, and then you go into the booth and record and you had it, it was, that was a tense process, because there was like four people in the room next door, like watching you do it. And then they'd say, we're gonna throw like, say, the channels gone off, like, this is a big thing. Because when you do continuity, a lot of it is live. And the channels do break down more regularly than you realise. So you have to be there to chat if the screen is black. And so a big thing that they want is you to be able to be calm and professional under pressure. So in the middle of the whole process of sort of saying that oh, yeah, sorry, the black screen blackout. What are you going to say? Or like, you know, something happens, like if a royal passes away, or something like that, which I mean, a lot of people that are in like the radio TV, well, they know anyway, if so you have the bits and pieces ready for that? So yeah, it's all included in the process. So I think it was like an hour and a half or something going in there.

    Jo Troy 6:10

    So it's pretty, pretty full on.

    Jemma 6:11

    It was Yeah. And I think that you've got to know that if you're going to go for it. It's not just a case of turning up and chatting on the telly, you have to be able to write out your scripts as well, you have to you do everything like you don't just do the Yeah, just do the scripts and the toolkit and you do all the uploading and everything.

    Jo Troy 6:28

    So how much would you say that you in terms of there's a lot of copywriting involved? How much of that? Did you know already? Compared to how much you had to learn? And is there a formula to that kind of thing? Or is it do you just throw your personality in there and basically do what you want kind of thing?

    Jemma 6:47

    Yeah, I probably differs for all the channels. But what channel four, has been saying all along is that they just want your personality to shine through. They don't necessarily hire people from the voiceover world. That's that was something that she surprised me because I think that the voiceovers job is quite different to continuity. Java, they're all in it for the personality. So that was really nice. In Yeah, in terms of the script, writing and stuff, I had done a lot of stuff with writing before, like I've done, I worked in PR back a few years ago. And yeah, I write a lot of content. So I was familiar with that kind of territory of writing, but never for TV continuity. So there's a lot of training involved, which is great. Because if free training. And it's been great, because they sort of look after you, they send you around with all a different continuity. People, and I guess you can learn from each person, every single person does it differently. So one person will teach you one way and someone will teach you very different. So which is nice, because you know, there's no one way of doing it, you have to put your personality in. But there is also obviously like a set format, like you want to get the tone of voice of your channel. And you want it to be you don't want to just be chatting a load of rubbish. For as you know, like rewrite radio, you can chit chat all you want, but you've got 20 seconds on an ident for

    Jo Troy 8:15

    how do you do? How do you deal with copy for a show that you've never seen before?

    Jemma 8:21

    The beauty of the job is that you get you get paid to watch TV. Yeah, you go in there. So like should I tell you like how. So you'd go in, and you'd open up the schedule of what's going to happen in the day and you look at what programmes are coming up, usually you'd you'd write, if you're doing a floor, for example, I'd go in, I'd write for the evening, so 6pm, through to midnight, wherever. And the first thing you do is write out your scripts. And part of that is watching the programmes. So you'd wash as much of the programmes in advance as you can that, you know, sometimes if you're strapped for time, just like the first and last sort of 2015 minutes, but you get used to it, you know, the more you do it, the more you know, the program's, but a lot of them are one off. So you watch as much of them as possible, you read up all the details. Because I mean, you want it to be as though you actually know what you're talking about, like otherwise Anyone, anyone could just sort of read the listing and just copy what you what you put there. So you've got to make it your own flavour and put your own personality into it. So you'd sit there, write out the scripts for the whole evening and watch all the programmes, which is really fun, to be fair. And then the afternoon you'd spend sort of during the recording if this was if this is pre recorded, I'm thinking in spend the afternoon during the recording. So you'd go down and each one at a time read out your scripts. So maybe you spend a couple of hours doing the actual talking. So if you're someone that wants to just a job channel, Telly, it's you do do that but it's only a couple hours. Yeah, the rest of it is all you know on the computer sort of Office jabi but in a fun way After you've done your recordings, it's then your job as well to sort of tag it all and upload it all to the system. So you have to make sure you've got like the right length, because the last thing you want to do is chat for 30 seconds, but your gap is 20. And then you're over speaking the programme. Yeah. It's kind of bet you sit there and you're like, how have you let me actually do this? Like, do I mean, how have I got the authority to do this. And then before you even do that, you're checking in with legal, you want to make sure you're hitting all of the right points that you need to hit. If you don't get the warnings out, then you're gonna go against off comm. And sometimes you want to check stuff, because there's a lot of programmes like naked attraction and stuff. And you put a script and it's a little bit risky. And sometimes I don't know, you can't so

    Jo Troy 10:44

    So what So what would happen? So okay, so most, most times you're recording, you're, you're creating a copy, you're recording the day before? Then you take it, you put it up. But what happens if you're strapped for time? Something's a bit like, on the borderline of can I say this? Or can I not? There's no one to ask. What happens? Yeah,

    Speaker 2 11:09

    for me, um, erring on the side of caution, probably because I'm kind of new to it. But you know, people that have been there for longer you can, you can usually tell if something feels a bit risky, you're better off not because then off comm getting involved, you got to remember that you're the voice of the channel, even though there's like quite a few people there that doing the same job as you for that day that you're on, like you represent the whole channel. So you've got a you've got to do it right. And I guess that's just for the pre recorded ones, the live ones are so much fun. And that's a channel for e4. Sadly, we don't get to the live at the minute. But Channel Four, you know, you've got it's a really fun job because you sit there six o'clock, you know, you've got your 32 second window to chat. And then a programme lasts for like an hour. And you're just kind of like, you know, you're doing your odd bits on the computer. But technically, you've then got an hour for yourself to you know, your next 30 seconds of one day. Yeah. So it's not, it's an odd one. But it's high pressure at times. And then also like, sometimes you can mellow out a little bit and enjoy it. How

    Jo Troy 12:15

    big is the team that you work with? Is it is it mainly you do work with a team was it mainly by yourself that you're working?

    Jemma 12:21

    So the team has about, I think eight ish people that our core team, and then there's all the Freelancers, you are pretty much working solo in terms of scripting and doing all the recordings. So you're in the booth on your own, you're pretty much on your own most of the day, especially if you live, but you work with the team. So once you've written all your scripts, especially for channel for, like pizza and stuff, it's very important that you're hitting the mark correctly. So once you've written them all, you're going to call with I think five different people from across like legal from marketing departments, all different people that then check that everything sounds good. And you're saying the right things. Sometimes you write scripts saying like, you know, coming up tomorrow at five, and then they'll look at it. But I actually this has been moved to tomorrow at six. So you know, small things like that. To make sure because when it's TV, there's so many people listening, and they're not afraid to tweet to rows that they've told me never look on Twitter when you're doing continuity, because the people are not afraid to voice their opinions. And they write in as well. They call up like the complaints boards, like there are a lot of guys out there, you know, that like to comment on what everyone's doing. So a lot of precautions are put in place to make sure we're saying everything correctly and authentically and not hurting anyone's feelings like you got to make sure you don't insult anyone. And you don't show favour to anyone that you can't mention any brands, you can't give undue prominence. So there's all different things that have to stay in your head that I never, never would have known before I applied to the job. I didn't think there was as much to it in terms of writing scripts, but you have to keep so many different things in mind.

    Jo Troy 13:59

    What would you say? You need to have to be a continuity announcer like what are the skills that you need?

    Jemma 14:07

    I think that script writing is a lot bigger one than I thought. Yeah, I mean, obviously, you need to have a good a good voice, you just have a clear voice that's going to cut through because it's not just like with radio, it's just kind of like the voice and then a bed. Whereas with the TV you need to cut through like the music and the screen and the fact that no one's really paying attention to you like nobody's actually listening to the continuity analysis. They don't realise it, like they're doing their own thing. But you need to be able to grab their attention when they are not focused or actually necessarily caring about what you're going to say. So you need to have, you need to be able to cut through like that in terms of your voice. You need to be able to write scripts authentically and like with character and personality, you need to be kind of like attention to detail because a lot of the job is doing that. Upload. So making sure you're tagging everything correctly,

    Jo Troy 15:02

    there's a lot admin, there's more admin involved than you think is, yeah, to say that.

    Jemma 15:07

    Yeah, more than you think. Which is actually so nice. Because then like, you go in there, and you know, for the whole day, you've created those, there's nothing there. And you've built solely on your own the script, the audio, and you've uploaded it all, which is nice. But you need to be able to remember because there's lots of parts to it, and you can't forget one part, because then it will impact other people. So yeah, you need to need to have all of that I think you have a good sense of humour, because you don't know what's dry scripts. No one wants to dress good. So yeah, just, I confidence is a big thing. Because you've got to, you've got to be able to sit there and you know, you're gonna go live. And even when you're live in your ears, people are counting down people having conversations in different like cities across the country. This is all like links, the TV television show broadcast centre, it's got all different channels and everything in that busy place. So you have to be able to block that all out and be confident in yourself to know I'm going live right now even though people are screaming over there and stressed out over here. In terms of competence. Just go do your thing and not be distracted by everything that's going on.

    Jo Troy 16:14

    Another thing I wanted to ask, I know you do presenting as well. Do you think continuity has taken away from what you're able to do in your video world and your presenting world? Or do you think it kind of helps you?

    Jemma 16:32

    I think it helps it a lot. I mean, I don't know how in terms of VO, I always thought okay, now that I am with Channel Four of continuity that's going to make it so much easier to get all these vo jobs. But it feels like quite a different worlds. I don't know if you would know anything about it. But it I don't know that it's necessarily helped me from a video perspective. But presenting 100% Just you know, all the experience of going live and being able to Yeah, confidently do stuff on your own. And to show that you know, you work with like a great brand like channel for it. It definitely helps. Because, you know, that's the thing with a lot of presenting jobs, people see the brands you've worked with, and then they're like, oh, yeah, great. You know, she's worked with this company and this company, that must mean she's good. That's why it's so hard when you're starting out and you've got no experience it because you're up against people that have got names attached to them brands attached to them is so tricky. So I think I think it's definitely helped from that perspective. But I'm not sure about the do well have you ever brushed into continuity

    Jo Troy 17:34

    is something that I've looked at, but the opportunities are very scarce. So when they do come around, you've literally got actors presented with over all jobs that are decided fake. So kudos to you for getting that that's a lot you know, thank you. It's, it's very hard. And there's a lot involved as you as you said, so that's it

    Jemma 17:57

    I think I have a friend that's joined since in channel four. And the way I got in was through I applied to this full time job and then they think I explained everything that I'm doing with my other jobs and they offered me a freelance role which is perfect for me I couldn't I could not wish for anything more but my friends just joined or new new colleagues just joined and she got in I believe by just emailing and contacting and and LinkedIn messaging and I've heard that quite a bit from people and I'm that's something I do work with other channels I mean, I know the channel for they kind of encourage you that if you're a freelancer, we're not going to say you can only work for channel for you. You do you which is so nice. But I understand like BBC and stuff. I think they say you're solely your, your mind. So yeah, I think that email in early daftar way, like with presenting with everything, I've never ever had a job come to me. Like I don't have an agent or anything. I've never had someone come to me and say we can you do this without me first send in however many emails doing something messaging someone. So I think that's the same continuity. Do you think there's no opportunities there? But you'd be surprised like the freelance pools, they they might hear your voice and be like, You know what, I'm not I've got quite a job in the lineup.

    Jo Troy 19:13

    Well, that's, that's good to know that they are, you know, you know, the freelancing side of things they do kind of encourage, again, you know, as a freelancer, it's kind of that thing where you're fighting with, do I want to work a nine to five during this day freelancer and obviously you want to be a freelancer, but that those kind of jobs, I always thought of them as being nine to five, or at least they're structured or structured anyway.

    Jemma 19:37

    So yeah, I was surprised to be fair, how much of the team is made up of freelance? I think when you do something nine to five, it's not actually nine to five to be fair, because peak shifts, they end at like 11 o'clock, but I think if you're freelance you're more keen to do the shifts that other people don't want to do, like, you know, Friday night if you do this job every single week. If someone offers you a Friday night shift, you don't want to do that. But as a freelancer, if they say to me, can you come in and find out am I Yes, I would love to you nice because it's more of a novelty. You know. So I think that they're like hiring freelancers, more voices, more diversity is important.

    Jo Troy 20:11

    So what would you say is, you know, something that you've learned about yourself, since you've started this role? Or since you've been in it? They didn't know before?

    Jemma 20:21

    I didn't know before. I think you've just got a trust in your own personality and your own ability, because there's no point like, I think a lot of females do this as well. You just kind of you do something you'd like, Oh, is it good? Like, I'm not sure if I did that? Well, but you've there's no point that doesn't help anyone that doesn't help you. You need to be confident in what you're doing. Because there's not going to especially as a freelancer, there's not going to be someone there all the time saying, well, pat on the back, well done, you're doing good. You have to be confident enough to go in there and just trust that you're good. And I think that's something that I am still working on. But it's definitely got better. Like just go in there, do a shift come out and be like, you know, what gems? You've just recorded the whole day of audio for Channel Four, you must be doing something right. So yeah, self belief is it helps. Okay, it does help.

    Jo Troy 21:10

    And if there's anybody listening that would wants to get into continuity? Is there any resources out there? Or is there any ways that they can maybe practice or learn?

    Jemma 21:23

    Yeah, I was quite surprised that I don't know who does this. But somebody out there clips up continuity from every single channel and post it on YouTube, like, every single link theory from like, every channel, or a company. I don't think it's a company. I think it's an individual. Yes. Because if you just type in like, Channel Five, continue to do anything, it will, it will come up on YouTube. If you want to sit there and practice then listen to that. But I think yeah, just asking people questions like for the job that's come up at Channel Four. Now people ask me all sorts of questions like How long's each link? And what's the tone of voice and just ask away like, anyone you can find LinkedIn is easy place to find people, because continuity is so random, but a lot of people don't know it exists and don't know that it's called continuity. Like if I didn't click on the link, that when I saw Channel Four, I only clicked on the link because it said Channel Four, I didn't didn't know what continuity was until I clicked on it and read the description as Oh, this is a great job. So yeah, finding out what is it exactly what to do continuity, type that into LinkedIn, find the people and ask the questions. Like, it's going to be a different answer from everyone, but the general gist, you know, it's all pretty, pretty similar. Yeah, ask people listen to your podcasts and listen to the telly Don't you know, think is it really a fit for us to say, if you're came up at like, I don't even know like Discovery Channel or something? I don't know a lot about that stuff. And I am not the target audience. So am I really going to apply there? Like am I going to do it justice? Probably not. Whereas when I'm talking on channel for an e4 I actually love the programmes I actually love the channel the tone of voice like it just works and I think that that people when you apply to places it kind of you can see if it's gonna work or not you can see if you actually do a good job of like represented the channel

    Jo Troy 23:20

    so I will put some links down below anyway, I want to find that YouTube

    Jemma 23:29

    YouTube I'm trying to think what else because I mean I didn't know anything before I joined so I think that that's a message you know, if you if you see a job and you think well I didn't know this existed I don't necessarily have the skill set because I had never done continuity before you can still apply because then you draw in your you draw in your attributes from elsewhere. Like I've done lots of writing in a previous job I've done lots of chatting on like radio, and it kind of you know, they liked that. I think they liked that more necessarily than someone that just has a great voice luckily, you got personality up

    Jo Troy 24:10

    but to wrap it up. Um, have you got anything going on that you want people to check out or search?

    Unknown Speaker 24:16

    I mean, thank you. What have I got going on?

    Jo Troy 24:22

    Oh, then stop being humble.

    Jemma 24:24

    Oh, please tune in channel four E for your thing is when you live it's kind of scary. Yeah, listening channel 44 West Side radio, the weekends the Get up. We've gotten careers the best. And yeah, I'm all over the place, but allowed Bible here and there. But if the HERC fun things can plug my instagram at Jim McCarthy. Thank you. Well, thank

    Jo Troy 24:47

    you for your time. Jemma. It's been a blast. And um, yeah, hopefully thank you you for a long time to come on TV. And you go Thank you.

    Jemma 24:56

    Nice one. Appreciate

    Jo Troy 25:03

    So what did I learn from today's conversation? Continuity announcing isn't just about having a good West. To be honest, it's secondary. You have to be attention grabbing and most importantly yourself. Personality is definitely one of the main attributes to standing out from the crowd. The role is very script heavy and you will be expected to be able to write your own. A good understanding of copyright is a great attribute to have. If you can work independently under pressure and have attention to details, when it's something you should look into for sure. You have to be able to think on your feet and elements of the role could be like so definitely not for the faint of heart.

    As always, I'd like to give a big shout out to the guest. Thank you, Gemma for the really insightful chat. And I hope he has given everyone the clarity and maybe even sparked an interest into the world of continuity analysis. If you're still not sure, I want to learn more. I have included some useful resources as usual below. And don't forget, you can always reach out and ask me any questions. Okay, number one down. See you in the next adventure. Bye

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Health is something we take for granted and we only really take notice of it when it seems to go downhill most of the time. And when it comes to vocal health, it's a myth. What is vocal health? Do we need to worry about it? And how do we look after our voices? Today's adventure is about vocal health. When your professional uses your voice, you start to realise how important it is. As we only have one off the road, I can hold my hand up and say I am guilty of not caring for my instrument as well as I should. Even though it is preached in bobbio community. What do I need to look out for? How do I know when something is wrong? How do I maintain or even improve my voice? Today I am going to be speaking with the amazing Carrie Garrett, clinical lead for voice at Hartfordshire. And what's the sheer Health and Care NHS Trust who will be able to tell me everything I need to know and of course so much more. But before we get into the chat, let's talk about today's sponsor, vital voice. Brand new to the fitness supplement world vital voice has created vital voice optimise a daily easy to swallow multivitamin capsule with added nootropics proven to contribute to normal psychological and cognitive function to reduce tiredness and fatigue and to support a healthy immune system. It provides daily long term nutritional support for pro voice users, including podcasters and voiceover artists. formulated for professional voice uses to improve vocal health and wellness 100% vegan and made in the UK. We've purposely source high quality ingredients. Not all big vitamin companies will do this and opt for the cheaper ingredients. Vital voice daily supplements provide an effective natural way to boost your energy, focus and immunity. If you're unable to consistently access a healthy diet, if you already take a daily supplement, vital voice will be an easy swap and upgrade. It's been formulated by clinical voice experts and specialist performance nutritionist. It provides immune boosting anti inflammatory benefits for your voice helping you to recover faster after heavy voice use. And I myself take it regularly they're giving my list is a 10% discount on a single pack. Go to battle boys.co.uk. To access this very special offer, make sure you purchase through Shopify on the vital boy sites and use for code Jo Troy at checkout. Remember to use this code through Shopify. Alternatively, that's too much for you just use the link in the description. Let's get back to the episode.

    Carrie 3:03

    How are you Joe? Lovely to meet you. Nice to meet you.

    Jo Troy 3:09

    So I'm good. You know even as a freelancer you still get the Monday blues. So I'm powering through. Yeah, just getting ready for this hopefully amazing interview that we're gonna have with you. I'm all by yourself.

    Carrie 3:24

    Yeah. Oh, good. Oh, good. Thank you are there we go got my data in. We're all good. I apologise. I really hope my internet's will be stable for us chatting. But if it's not, I can switch it and switch over.

    Jo Troy 3:38

    So yes, I'll get into it. So basically, I wanted to talk to you today to basically understand more about Voc. Well, I've been in music and now voiceover for most of my life. And you know, it's become a hobby, and now is a job. So it's something I've always been aware of work or health, but I've not prioritised as I'm sure a lot of people don't, you know, I just wanted to pick your brain to ask you some questions to help myself and other people to you know, hopefully maintain their voices and get the best out of it. So um, if you want to start off by, you know, just introducing yourself and telling people what you do.

    Carrie 4:17

    Yeah, let me see. My name is Carrie Garrett. I'm a specialist speech and language therapist. But I came in quite a different route into that because I've been a speech therapist for 10 years. I mean, I'm 44 in January, so it's not been my whole life. Before I was before I decided to train as a speech therapist. I was first an instrumentalist, and I studied music and singing and ended up working in the music profession, working for various agencies and gigging and performing all over the place and all sorts of theatres and venues and holiday parks and all sorts of things like that as you do and Alongside that I was always teaching singing. And I love teaching singing, I love the musicality of it. The sort of technique side of things as I knew it back then, I mean, we're talking, started teaching singing probably in 1998. And then was performing as well alongside that, and then you know how it is exactly it swings and roundabouts, isn't it in terms of what works out there and what isn't. So I decided to actually get a qualification in teaching. And so I did a PGCE in music and started teaching music. I didn't I never taught in a school actually ended up working in colleges, because I wanted the sort of freedom of the vocation or side of things and the actual musicality of songwriting and, and performance. And, and I ended up with all that singing, teaching and working with so many vocalists, I ended up having lots of people going, what's wrong with my voice? What can you help me carry? Please, can you help me what's going on? And I actually would say, I don't know, I absolutely don't know, at the time, in sort of late 90s, early 2000s, there wasn't much about vocal health and sort of what to do. The research wasn't as advanced as it is now, the clinics weren't set up as they are now. So it's rapidly developed in the last couple of decades. And, and actually, I went to a course that was run by Julian keys and Jeremy Fisher, and called vocal process because they'd written a book called singing and the actor. And it was all about characterization with the voice and how you use the voice technically, to actually get the sound quality you want. And it blew my mind. It absolutely started me on the path to write. Okay, so now this is how the voice works. And it absolutely made me want to learn more, as you know, sometimes these things do daily, you do one thing, and it opens the door to a million other things. And it took a couple of years after that. But then I decided, right, I do want to retrain, and it just so happened that the government were funding speech and language therapy courses. And at the time, it was always if you want to work with voice clinically, and actually help people, you have to do speech and language therapy that that was the way forward. So I did that qualification, graduated in 2012. And I was so lucky. I think, because of my interest in voice and working with so many voice practitioners and in various guises. Prior to becoming a speech therapist, it helped with me getting my first job in one of the best centres in the UK, which was Manchester. And so the the sort of clinical side of things is really developed from working with a lady called Sue Jones, who's a consultant speech therapist. And she was super hot on working with professional voice users. So actors, broadcasters, singers, anybody who uses their voice professionally. And from there, we did various things. So in the clinical world, we worked as part of a team which developed a protocol. So we got really good assessment and diagnostics as to what was happening for people with problems with their voices. And it helps speed up treatment and work out what treatments actually work and and so actually, it's improving the care that people get when they do have problems with their voices. So yeah, so that's, that's how I got to it and then moved from Manchester, we started working with the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham as well in their voice team, then had children things changed went into independent practice, and all the while still gigging and singing myself. And then yeah, and it's landed me now. So I work part time for the NHS now in Herefordshire and Worcestershire. And I'm clinical lead for voice in my current trust. And I work within my independent practice, which is the thing is clinic, which is probably I don't know if that's where you sort of saw me from

    Jo Troy 9:01

    and well, yeah. Yeah. So what you said, you know, when you were teaching, originally, people would come up to you and say, What's wrong with my voice? What are common injuries that are or problems that you came across when and even now?

    Carrie 9:24

    Yeah, so I think people don't know exactly what's causing the problems, but I think the same sort of symptoms are all very, very common. So it might be vocal fatigue, lack of stamina, the endurance is gone. The vocal pitch range is not as it was, there might be breaks in the sound. Lack of control, sometimes the voice will just flip out or squeak or make funny noises when it's not not wanted. It might be that the sound the tone quality has changed. There's some persistent hoarseness so you know, the graveline To the voice, which just doesn't go, all those type of things are signals that there could be something wrong with the voice that that you could seek help for. Absolutely.

    Jo Troy 10:11

    Okay, so I have a deep voice. So how would I know I have a problem versus I have an injury? Or is it just something that I haven't been drinking water? Or I have a warmed up? Like, how is this? Is there one specific thing that you're not okay that I need to go to see someone? Because, for example, if I was going to call you and say I have a problem, and then the next day, I have had there was a problem or it's just

    Carrie 10:37

    you, ya know, really, really good question. And I think when you when you're working with your voice day in and day out, whether that's in a sort of professional performance capacity, or whether it's maybe someone who's in telesales or a public speaker, sorry. Then you know what your standard is, you know what your normal is, and you know, when things aren't quite right, and that is your first red flag. If those not quite right things, don't respond to the usual voice care, sort of techniques and tips, which I can talk about as well. If they don't respond to that typical voice care, and they carry on for about two weeks, then definitely ask your GP to refer you to e n t, and possibly if you are a professional voice user, a specialist voice clinic. And the reason I say ask for a specialist voice clinic, if you're a professional user of the voice, is because they are more likely to have the expertise and the clinical specialism to add the equipment, in fact, to actually get the best camera views use of what we call stroboscope piece, we can see the movement of the vocal folds, and really pick out what might be going on with the voice. So that you can get the most effective treatment. If you have an EMT who's a laryngologist, that is obviously going to stand you in the best stead. So EMT is sort of an umbrella term for ear, nose and throat doctors. And some like in all professions, some people would have more of an interest in the nose part or the ear part. So really, in the specialist voice clinics, you're going to have people who are laryngologist people who were used to working with the larynx and the voice and performers more frequently. And they will understand the emotional pressures of having a voice problem as well. And if you're very lucky, if it is a multidisciplinary voice clinic, so where there's maybe a singing teacher, and a speech and language therapist, and and an osteopath or a physiotherapist in that voice clinic as well, then you're more likely to get that emotional support, as well as the physical support that you need for a speedy recovery. And one of the things I would say is if you don't know where to go for for the specialist voice clinic assessment, there are some really great organisations out there. I don't know if you've heard of Bapaume of the British Association of Performing Arts medicine.

    Jo Troy 13:13

    I think I've heard of it. Very Yeah, I think I have Yeah, I don't know much about it. But I think is yeah, that's my radar.

    Carrie 13:19

    Yeah. Yeah. So the great thing about that organisation is it is a charity and people with specialist interest in working with performers, including broadcasters, they have sort of indicated there want to help people. And it does mean that if you are experiencing a problem, and you're not able to get in with your own GP, because I know the National Health Service nowadays is at breaking point is it's about how do I get that care that I need because it's it's maybe not considered nationally as urgent as someone who's maybe on a cancer pathway or something. So for performance, but it is vitally important because if this is the tool of your trade, this is what you earn money from. It has a social economic impact, you know, and an emotional impact as well. So if you need help, if anybody listening to this needs help, in fact, Pam's brilliant and you can just Google them search for them because they can offer discussion with a GP and fast track and signpost soundpoint Can't speak today sorry, signposting to the specialist voice clinics that you might need, and the care that you might need. They've also got loads of resources. And there's another organisation called the British voice Association, who similarly has a list of voice clinics where you can see if you can contact anybody from them to get an assessment with them.

    Jo Troy 14:51

    And somebody you know, yourself, um, I, you play bras correct to wind instruments. Um, Hmm. And

    Carrie 15:01

    flute Yeah, flute. Originally it was flute and then sax? Yeah.

    Jo Troy 15:05

    And so what kind of, you know, injuries or problems have you sustained over the years?

    Speaker 2 15:11

    Oh, questions. So I think we're all human. And I think it's if anybody's out there thinking, well, I'll never get a problem because I've got optimal voice care. And you know, we're all human. And actually, what causes voice problems is what we call multifactorial, there's so many things which feed into a voice problem. It can be, it can, because one of the biggest things that can affect any voice user, but professional voice users is probably the muscle tension that can come alongside other things. So, for example, if you've got some emotional stresses, such as you know, you're experiencing grief or relationship change, or a house move, or financial pressures, you've got a background of stress and tension and just anxiety. The body responds with the stress response, which triggers adrenaline, and we have that fight or flight sort of response just on the back in the background in our bodies. And that can cause tension in the system, which caught which produces our voice, it might be that your respiratory part of it is sort of impaired and you can't breathe as well as he could, it might be that the fine sort of muscle movements of the larynx and the vocal tract are hindered as well. And limited, so it's reducing the flexibility of your voice, you're not breathing as well as breathing more shallowly. And actually, it has a massive impact. If you're relying on your voice for the type of work that you do. You know, you want to get a particular result out of your voice, your brain knows you can do it, your body knows it can do it, but it's just not doing it, it can be because of muscle tension. And other things which can cause tension, physical injury, so it might be shoulder neck injuries, trauma, you know, sometimes that we've had examples of people who play sports, they've had a slight blow to the neck or, or something, you can have those type of injuries, which might just cause that tension isn't there's not necessarily anything wrong, and being damaged. But it's just the tension is there. And you might need some support to sort of get back to normal so that you've got the full range, the full flexibility and colour and dynamic range to your voice that you're used to. Obviously, there are things like viral infections, coughs and colds, the more you're coughing with with and what that actually does is it can cause some inflammation inside your voice box, which means that everything works a bit more sluggishly, you don't have the vocal range, you get tired a lot more quickly, because things just aren't working. Right. So really, if you are poorly and you've experienced a cold, because I know this is quite often I get I get a lot of inquiries through through the singers clinic, you know, I've had a viral infection, it's just not going It's been two weeks, and it's just not go. And I would actually say Well, yes, speak to a GP, if you're worried speak to a GP and get an assessment, I get a camera to look down your throat and see if what's going on. But the likelihood is that you're still recovering from that illness, the coughing would have caused that inflammation and it's about doing things just being kind to yourself. I think we live at a, you know, a really fast pace in society. Now. There's very little downtime, there's a lot of people burning out left, right and centre. And I think we kind of have expectations of ourselves, for social media for the work that we do that we need to stay on top of it. And when when your voice is your profession, you've got that additional pressure to get back to work as soon as you can. But in actual fact, is giving yourself that extra week of vocal rest breaks, great hydration, great sleep, great nutrition, gently warming up the voice and cooling it down, maybe doing some stretches, or those kinds of things can really help just the healing process to being kind to yourself and giving yourself the time to heal.

    Jo Troy 19:21

    So what would you say will be the easiest way to take care of your waste that the bare minimum to take care of it?

    Carrie 19:27

    I would say two things are the absolute key and nothing new under the sun here. I'm sure you know about this job. hydration and rest. I think hydration you've got two ways you could got a drink. You've got a drink, drink, drink clear fluids, and what you drink is really important. So clear fluids are great alcohol and caffeine they can be dehydrated well they're said to be dehydrating and caffeine is a diuretic so sort of strips the body of moisture more. But staying hydrated is really important. Steam inhalations if you want to saline NEBS as well, nebulizer, some people find humidifying the air that you'll have the rooms that you're working in. One of the things I know that people working in studios can face is the dryness in the actual environment of where you're working. So if it's not a home studio and you're actually working in a studio, it's the ventilation isn't great. So it's really important to have vocal rest breaks and mental rest breaks for mental and physical rest. Just 510 minutes out in the fresh air, getting that moisture back into your system as you breathe. You know, and just giving yourself a chance, giving your muscles a chance just to relax and let go of any built up tension from the work you've been doing. Let it all go, so that you can then get back on to task and you'll get more from your voice if you have those rest breaks.

    Jo Troy 20:54

    Yeah, we've water you know, obviously, you know, that's like the number one role, but I've always found it doesn't matter how much water I have to literally, you know, plan? HOUR BY HOUR how much I'm gonna drink to fill with different Yeah, I feel like if I'm just casually drinking water, and I drink a bit now I could drink more. But I do drink water. I feel in the morning, my voice is very, it feels like a sore throat, not like on a one to 10 it will be maybe a five. But once I've had some water in the morning, then it kind of sorts itself out. So yeah, I'm never really I always get a bit worried of data. am I drinking enough? am I drinking too much? Because I know drinking too much as well can also affect your voice? And yeah, it's just that that balancing act like really hot? Yeah, I think really hard to deal with.

    Carrie 21:50

    Yeah, I think it's probably better to be thinking about I need enough water and sort of international standards are about one and a half litres for women and two litres for an adult male, you can have a bit more than that. That's no problem. If you're doing more exercise, and you're you're using your body systems a lot more than you're going to need a little bit more water. It's about staying hydrated. And you're absolutely right, you're going to plateau, you're going to reach a point where you're hydrated enough. Interestingly, you mentioned morning voice. And I think this is an area where actually there are a few tips, which just just things that people can think about which might help with that morning voice. Absolutely, you've hit the nail on the head with a fantastic strategy of have a drink, you know, have a drink in the morning, first thing, get your body going get your guts going, you know, gut health is really important as well, because your body is your instrument. And we all know gut health is great for immunity and, and everything so so yeah, have that drink of water, maybe have inhale some steam, have a hot shower, whatever it is get that hydration to your vocal folds. But there's a couple of other things to think about as well, the reasons why you might have that morning voice. I'm not saying this is you Joe at all, but it's just things we're all human. Like I said, we get these things. And, obviously being out the night before, you know, drinking alcohol, anything socialising using the voice a lot can mean that there's sort of a ending when we use our voice mucus and is increased, because it's kind of a protective feature within the vocal tract, that mucus is kicked out and it lubricates everything that's going on inside the voice inside the vocal tract. So heavy use might cause a little bit of inflammation, there might be a little bit more mucus in there. So it's again, that water will help to clear that away give you that sort of vocal clarity that you're looking for earlier on in the morning than then without it. And the other thing to think of is, are you an is a person emote an open mouth breather. So if you've got nasal congestion, or you know, snore or anything, if you breathe through your mouth when you're asleep, obviously all the sort of mouth tissues, they're all going to be drier and equally the back of your throat as well. So again, that water is going to just hydrate and and help things to get back to normal faster. The other thing as well which might be causing that sort of roughness in the roof to the quality of sound in the morning, two more things actually. One is there may be a little bit of reflux people can suffer from intermittent what we call lowering go pharyngeal reflux, which is essentially just acid affecting the tissues in the back of the throat coming up from from the stomach while you're sleeping. And so again, water can help get rid of that. Another thing that people are recommended from speech and language therapy point of view is to use something called Gaviscon advanced or another alginate so it just coats the throat before you go to bed. If so if you are experiencing reflux, it's gonna coat those tissues and soothe and just make things nice and smooth in the morning. And it also forms a little plug on your stomach contents there overnight, you don't get the reflux. So that's really helpful. And the last thing I would say is you've been asleep. And just like, as we, you know, as we go through life, I know, like I said, I'm 43 Rubbo. And unfortunately, things take longer to warm up in the morning than they used to when I was 1920. I used to bounce back like anything, but we're human, our legs are a little bit stiffer. You know, when we've been asleep, we've not been using the muscles is what I'm trying to say. So do a little bit of vocal warmup do some do some stretches, do some humming, some some SVT exercises. So what they are is sort of like store exercises or lip trills like those kinds of things, gentle warm up exercises that help to get things going, and the whole system to balance again, and that should help that morning voice.

    Jo Troy 26:01

    Okay, good. Good, good, useful tip. So Oh, try this face? Yeah. I wanted to ask in, you know, in regards to, you know, singers versus voiceover actors versus public speakers, or just, you know, everyday people that, you know, just talk, you know, what is it? Is there any difference to the way that, you know, obviously, the entries may be different, I'm assuming, but is there any major differences between recoveries or ended Oh, injuries, or just the way that you would deal with them in general.

    Carrie 26:42

    So if you think of yourselves, there's this was a really good way of thinking of professional voice users, which is you are athletes. And just like a shot putter, might have slightly different injuries, more prevalent injuries than a sprinter, or a swimmer, different injuries for different sports. With the voice, it's it is slightly different that you may get, you may find that people who are singing, and singers may have not different injuries, but they may be more prevalent injuries depend because of the amount of voice use, they're doing. The sorts of athleticism, of voiceover artists and singers, it depends on the sort of characterization within your voices. Because there's equally there's characterization in characters in voiceover work, as well as singing, because there are tribute Acts where people are full time pretending to be someone else, and actually putting on a character in their voice. And we do find that that sort of work. We do see slightly more of those type of artists within voice clinics. But I think that's because of the tension. And that need to reconfigure the vocal tract more frequently for the work they're doing. So it's like a physical stress. injury, I suppose like, like, if you had a knee injury, if you if you are an elbow injury, if you're a tennis player, and they have tennis elbow, don't know, because of the repeated action, similarly for the voice, but you can protect yourself against it by following great vocal care advice, and avoiding what we call the misuse and abuse of the voice. So misuse and abuse is I've worked with people in clinic before where they are act actors and actors, what actors and their character has had months and months of emotionally heavy shouting scenes. And of course, it's going to have a toll on the voice because it's emotionally draining. It's physically draining and physiologically challenging for for your instrument to work with that. So in that way, yeah, there may be more in like more likely to have an injury but generally, we all have the same type of apparatus. But if we're mindful of that, rest that hydration, the warming up the cooling down the stretching, releasing of tensions and looking after your mental health and giving yourself those those breaks, you know, those those really stand people in good stead for having a healthy voice for everything you do. And I would I would say that if you are feeling like you asked me earlier about when when do I seek help from a GP, you know, a GP or EMT or when do I seek the help? I would definitely say if you are if you feel like it might be because of workload and things have changed in terms of what your voice is being required to do and you're experiencing changes in your vocal tract. Then definitely seek help from a vocal coach. You know, a spoken voice coach, or a singing voice coach. See A teacher, local rehabilitation coach, whatever you want, whatever, wherever you want to go to, because they can work with you on what you're doing. So it's giving you the technique to get the most out of your voice in what in what you're doing. So the characterization or the pitch range or dynamic range, you know, and there'll be working on physicality, as well as sort of intention behind what you're doing. Yeah, so definitely seek seek help you, there's so much help out there. There's so many boys geeks out there, just like me. So yeah, definitely seek out why not, you know, get the training, get the coaching that sports people would, you know, you can have people for a short period of time, jump to another person, it doesn't matter, you learn from everyone. Yeah.

    Jo Troy 30:46

    And, you know, you touched upon the physical side of things like what kind of physical movements or physical rehabilitation was do you normally do with somebody that has a voice issue?

    Carrie 31:01

    Yeah, so it all depends on on how what's happened. Obviously, we're talking about professional voice users and the types of injuries they get. But in the spectrum of voice problems, there are also people who experience neurological problems, you know, there might be a wider condition affecting them, there are people who've been affected by surgery, you know, so they might have had a surgical intervention, which has affected the vocal tract or the vocal cords. And so they have to learn how to reuse things. And there may be physical therapy in that. For professional voice users. Again, there's really great help out there, because the field of the support network around professional voice users is great and growing. And one group of sort of help professionals that you might find was really supportive, is laryngeal massage. So what we call manual therapy techniques. And there are some great places and individual practitioners and some speech and language therapists do it, some singing teachers do it, you know. So if you need some, what what the manual therapy does is, you as individuals, you might sort of have a routine where you're warming up and doing neck stretches and shoulder rolls, and, you know, doing your physical stretches and your normal routine. But actually, because you've had some heavy characterization work, you've got tension that's just in there that you just can't shift and you've just got this constant hoarseness and lack of flexibility. And it might be that if you go to someone for some laryngeal manual therapy, that it just frees up the movement of the muscles and everything so that you get that flexibility back and quite quickly. So definitely worth checking that out as well. If you've not been ill, and you've not had a sudden change to your voice. It's sort of been gradual, and possibly linked to vocal load and what you've been doing and how you've been using your voice, then yeah, I've definitely say manual therapy, laryngeal manual therapy, and maybe a vocal coach or singing teacher.

    Jo Troy 33:08

    Wow. Okay. So what information I love it, I love it. So yeah, just just to wrap it up, you know, you've given me so much information and paces to say NO to NO research, and you know, and everyone listening as well. But just to wrap it up, if somebody wanted to, you know, reach out to you, or if they did have a problem, and we touched upon this earlier, but if there's someone out there with an issue, or they want to contact you, how do they do so? And where can they find you?

    Carrie 33:37

    Yeah, so I'm afraid I'm not very good on social media and websites and things so but my website is www dot for singles. clinic.com So you can have a look at who I am and how to get in touch and it's really simple. Just email me info at the thing is clinic.com. I'm more than happy to answer questions if people have them. I am on Instagram. Just carry voice SLT. Yeah, just get in touch. Ask me a question. If I need sometimes I just signpost people off to where they. I can provide advice. I mean, I don't know, Joe, if you if you want to have any links of anything I've talked about today, and you can put it on your socials as well. So yeah, great. So like I said, Bapaume. So the British Association of Performing Arts, medicine and the British voice Association, two separate things really helpful to anybody using their voice professionally. And they have lists of singing voice clinics, voice specialist clinics and voice specialist practitioners, as well. So you'll find vocal coaches and singing teachers and speech therapists who have voice specialisms on there as well. So yeah, the thing is clinic.com

    Jo Troy 34:51

    Make sure you check it out one. Well, yes. Thank you again for your time.

    Carrie 34:55

    So welcome.

    Jo Troy 34:56

    I've learned a lot. Hopefully I don't have to call Will you fall popular in the future? But if I do I know where to go.

    Carrie 35:05

    Exactly. Brilliant. Thanks so much, Joe.

    Jo Troy 35:12

    So what did I learn from today's conversation? Injuries do not discriminate, and often caused by muscle search. There's no magic pill and no quick fix. You just got to listen to your body when he wants to press race. It's always great to have a professional at home. As this beacons carry I must say she did help me offer a little injury I had recently. So don't suffer in silence. And feel free to reach out to the GP to request doctor when you need. And last but not least, the one we all know but I had to throw it in there. Remember to hydrate people, or in our no bus so dangerous. I'll go through stages sometimes don't drink enough. And I could definitely say I could tell the difference. So make sure you hydrate

    Thank you Kevin for sharing your wisdom. I have put a lot of links in the show notes for us to feast on. So make sure you check them out people. Remember you can always reach out if you have any questions or even tips that you might want to share. Last couple remember to break the episode. Today's venture is now calm. Until next time, bye

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way. Okay, so I decided to make an episode about A I. I know I know, I know how original Joe but him yeah, this is something that isn't going away anytime soon. And ignorance is not bliss. I wasn't going to do this episode, but I've noticed a lot more AI jobs coming across my radar. I guess the stars just aligned and really wanted me to cover this again, because I also got a message on Twitter a few weeks ago from Dr. Mathilde pavis, who actually listens to the pod. Now you may be wondering who the hell is Dr. Mathilde pavis. Dr. Michel pavis is an expert in intellectual property law, ethics and new technologies. She actually came on my radar recently when she did a talk with friend of the pod, Marcus Hudson, at a vo conference talking about this subject. Well, I wasn't there. And I have questions on my own. So it's my turn. I want to know the current laws. How can I educate myself on AI and intellectual property, and most importantly, how to protect myself from getting my voice cloned and pull me out of a job. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining me today. But a long time coming. But it's nice to have you with us. How are you?

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 1:44

    I'm great. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited for a conversation. I've been listening to your podcasts. So it's kind of it's really nice to be here with you. It's always nice to have people from different backgrounds in terms of their professions, listening to what I do. So yeah, thank you for taking time out and reaching out. And yeah, we're here now.

    Jo Troy 2:03

    So um, a lot of people may not know who you are. So would you like to introduce yourself to the people?

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 2:08

    Absolutely. So I'm Dr. Mathilde pavis. And I am an academic and legal consultant, I work in law. So in simple language, I'm a lawyer. And I specialise in the protection of people's faces and voices, bodies and performances when they work in digital media. And more recently, that has meant I've been working more and more on issues of protection, remuneration and sort of distribution of digital clones, digital reproductions and AI generated performances, voices content more generally.

    Jo Troy 2:45

    So why law and why this side of law, like the creative space,

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 2:52

    so I ended up specialising in this area, because I love the work you do. So I love stories. And I love stories well told me specifically, people with skills who can tell a story like no one else people can connect. So I consume news and engage with content all day long as podcasts is TV series and all genres, I have no shame in my game. I just listened to it or watch it all. And I love it. And so I trained as a commercial lawyer, I was largely working in areas of company law, merger and acquisition. And I was just not really lifting my spirits. So I decided to move towards intellectual property, and really working in like areas of creativity that I enjoyed every day. I'm not performing myself, but I love the work of performers. And that way of connecting with people, I just love stories. So I think that was a good combination of interest and skills. And what I found out is actually performers tend to not be too keen on reading contracts and finding out about their rights that often precedes that makes them come across as difficult or not as collaborative or cooperative. Or they tend to work with people they're really friendly with, they have like a nice community. And then sort of they find it difficult to bring up questions of pay contracts, licencing agreements and things like that. And it's been an interesting space to work in from that perspective, kind of a mix of psychology and law. And I really enjoy that.

    Jo Troy 4:24

    Obviously, AI is the hot topic in the world of entertainment and the creative world. What are the common topics that are thrown at you, basically?

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 4:34

    So the most question I have and I've received is, Do I own my voice? And do our own my face and what can I do to protect myself from unwanted cloning or unwanted sensitization of my work in my content, using AI or other technologies? That's the most common question actually that question. It comes from people who are interested in working in that

    based in collaborating with companies to do research and development, on working on other projects like that, but they want to make sure they're prepared and their interests are protected, and also get that questions from people who feel a bit fearful and anxious about it, and they actually want to keep to the work, they do as much as possible, but they have kind of the AI development or AI innovation looming on the horizon, or in the background of their mind and of their work, and they just want to make sure they know what to do, as this technology develops. So that's the main question. And then really, otherwise, it's just a repetition of the problems or questions that already existed in other sectors, whether you're working in gaming, or in dubbing, whatever the work, the type of performance work you do. So is it questions on contracts? It's questions of intellectual property is question of remuneration and fees and usage. And there's those questions that end up being repeated in the context of AI, which is good news, because those are questions we have answers to. And what we need to do is bring those answers good answers into the new AI sector.

    Jo Troy 6:10

    And in terms of where we are right now currently, with, you know, the government, you know, there's been a lot of campaigns for the protection of voiceovers especially to do with AI. Where are we currently now? Where do the government stand in protecting us in June now in 2023,

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 6:30

    so at the moment, the government is working on AI and improving legal frameworks and policies, but the only sort of difficulty in answering your question is that it's a bit piecemeal, they're doing lots of different bits of work in different places. So if you're an expert in the field, then you have you have the capacity to look at the field overall, you can see all of this pieces moving. But if you're perhaps a performer focused on your work in your craft, you're not going to be busy reading up on Westminster's, you know, bulletins and all of that, it's a little bit difficult to get a quick overview. So broadly speaking, the government in the UK wants to run itself as a union a new place for AI superpower and innovation. So their approach is to go down the route of a light touch regulation approach. Now, that is business friendly, and could work if it's done very well, and we'll see what they propose. But so that means they're looking at collaborating with industry to kind of ease issues and solve problems with Code of Conduct potentially updating certain areas of law. What it means for performers is for the format, is that we would want to look at the intellectual property framework and make sure that is solid.

    So your rights and your intellectual property as a performer is well protected in the context of digital cloning or AI sinicization, or data mining, similarly, want your data protection rights to be well protected. At the moment, the government is consulting on these issues. And it hasn't proposed clear, you know, proposals for reforms or recommendations. So we're still waiting, there's been a big conversation about data mining, data mining is the first task that an AI model has to do, in order to pick up on patterns and information in your content. So then it's able to generate it in a way that, you know, it's been prompted to whether it imitates your original input information or content, or whether it creates something completely different, right, but it has learned something from the content you've given it. So if I'm trying to clone your voice, Joe, I'd have to use your voice. And I'm asking the AI model to imitate what is heard, but with new text, or completely different scripts. And so the first step would be data mining. Now, at the moment in the EU, and in the UK, you can do data mining, for non commercial purposes, if you fit within the definition of a research institution or organisation. So that allows universities to do that schools to do that work if they're researching. But it doesn't allow companies to do that without paying rights have access to the content if it's protected.

    So if you're a performer, and you want to give your back catalogue, for example, to a company like that, in order for them to improve or work on their models, AI models, you could do that and leverage your feed remuneration against them. And I think majority of people feel that's fair, because you're giving value to the company. And in exchange, they're also extracting and gaining value and then there should be an exchange of remuneration. The government for a while proposed that we open up the right to data mined to also non commercial purposes, meaning by that, then you wouldn't be able to get remuneration or even your consent before someone goes in mind your content. And so that got really big pushback from a lot of people across the creative industries from equity to UK performers unions or mucins. Unions at the musician's union. Sorry. So lots of people were like, hang on a minute.

    So I'm not sure that's fair, we can we stop and think about this before we make that law. And that's what happened, the government agreed to pause, do more work to explore the impact that this type of reform would bring to the creative industries, but also beyond. So at the moment, that's the phase we're in with this consultation discussion. And with the direction of travel of the UK, is to consider a light touch regulation approach. We'll see what that means. But what I do is, I'm trying to bring evidence of the issues that performers face, and I support organisations that work in this space, like equity. But there are other ones as well, to make sure we've got a full picture that your interest is a performer, which is a bit different to the interest of a painter, for example, or someone who works in a different media immediate, that doesn't have their face, they've always their body in it, and really the heart of it, because I think to me, that makes you more vulnerable, I think it makes the content you create more personal, also more relatable and more enjoyable. But that's my personal opinion. But also as like kind of an asset. I think that makes it more special in many ways than a piece of music, not saying music is different. And that's a form of expression. But I think when it doesn't have something that looks like you in it, it's a little bit different.

    Jo Troy 11:17

    And you said that is currently on pause. Does that mean they can't do anything until it's discussed again? Or does it mean they're allowed to do stuff still? That data mining? Wise?

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 11:28

    That's a great question? Yeah, that's a great question. So that means at the moment, in order for a company to mine your content when it's protected by intellectual property rights, whether it's copyright or performance rights or another. That means that your consent is required if you're within the term of protection, and is, you know, work within your lifetime would be within that duration of protection?

    Jo Troy 11:51

    And should I be keeping an eye on governments all around the world? Or do I just focus on the UK Government?

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 12:00

    I would say, keep it easy, and keep it about the UK to begin with. Because at the moment, each state is going its own pace and have their own legal frameworks to work with. The UK and the EU at the moment are harmonised on this point, because the UK has left the EU that long ago. And it skipped a lot of the laws that were coming from the EU and harmonised, which really helps.

    So if you work within those parameters, that means you're working, you know, with parameters also common to the whole EU blocks, that's a lot of countries that you're kind of up to date on. Now, I wouldn't worry about if you're a performer, I wouldn't start looking at I wouldn't necessarily keep an eye on all of the policy developments. But I would get to date as soon as I find out what I'm told that it turns into actual laws that impact you. Where I would start on the other hand is with your contracts. Your contracts are your main point of prediction today for AI innovation, whether you want to engage with it, and you're keen to get on board, and you know, partner up with those companies or with the studios or using AI tools as far as their as far as their work, or whether you just want to take a bit of a distance and just stay informed and just you know, keep away a little bit until the field settles a bit more.

    Jo Troy 13:17

    So yeah, I was I was actually going to ask you How does one protect themselves? But in terms of contracts, what type of things should we look out for as voiceovers? And people are working audio space in terms of when somebody's trying to, you know, sneak little words in there that we don't understand, obviously, because we're not legally trained. But essentially, it means they're taken our voice and do what they want with it. What should we look out for? And how do we protect ourselves.

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 13:45

    So good news is that you only have to look out two parts of your contract. And there are a few key words that you can actually search for in a document and when you get it. So when you get your contract. And remember, your contract can also come in the form of just a series of emails, it doesn't need to be a document named or title contract or agreement for each of your contract. So you could have a conversation that we're having right now and that your contract, or you can of course receive, you know, messaging on social media, with emails with text and that also via contract, but sometimes when you're receiving terms and conditions, they're attached to an email, or they come in a form of a document. When you get this when you're looking at emails, make sure you look at two things, which is your first is your intellectual property transfer. Sometimes they call intellectual property, sometimes they call it buyout, they can be called licencing terms. So those are all key words that refer to the same term in your contract. And what you want to make sure you do is ask for and only agree to a licence not an assignment of your rights, not a buyout of your rights assignment in buyout essentially means the same. That means that you're selling your rights and you're selling your IP and within that your voice as well. So the person

    And you received your rights in that way because they got a buyout from you, they can recreate your, you know your voice or content that you've generated using AI because it's a bit like you've sold your house, what they do with the house, when you sold it, the buyers can do whatever they want, is different when you renting it. And the better analogy would be if you licence your content for a limited period of time, for a limited project, then the person who receives the enjoyment of those rights is bound to respect those boundaries, right, so you're more or you're renting your voice for a period of time. And that's the best thing to do right now. The other thing you need to keep an eye on is your remuneration. The more rights you give away, the more remuneration you should give in return, because the more privilege and the more value you're giving up, right. So if they're not ready to pay, you shouldn't give as many rights or as much rights over to them. I know, it's not always easy to negotiate, I can see your face right now. And it's telling me, that would be great. If we weren't like this, I know.

    It doesn't always work like that. So remuneration should be proportionate. But very, very importantly, even if you've got a licence, if you've got a remuneration, where you know, it's as far as it can go, because you have to work with a budget and with the clients and all of that, make sure you're including an A clause and artificial intelligence clause that says, this project is about doing this, it's a video is a podcast, it's a script, audio book, whatever it is not to be repurposed for something else. And I do not consent and to your voice or your content being reused, repurposed using AI in a completely different context. And that AI clause will help you even if you have agreed to pay out because it's an industry standard, you can't you know, get out of or negotiate your way out of, because that's really common, I completely appreciate that. And so using AI clauses is something very effective you can do tomorrow. And I put out actually a lot of content and resources about them.

    I've got videos online, I've got a digital course on there. Starting in July, I also will share AI clauses template that you can go and copy and paste and use tomorrow in your contract. If that's interesting, I'm gonna put them out today actually. So they just tell you will be listening to this. It'll be already online and you can look it up on my website on my social media and use it it's free, use it put in your contract, put sledded in that email, when you're having a chat saying I agree to your con, you know, agree on their fee agree on the budget, those terms are fine, by the way, you know, let's include that into a contract. So far, I've had 100% track record in getting them in every time I've helped a performer include that clause into a contract, it's worked because clients understand that if they're not hiring you for a project that's related to AI, they understand that you want to protect yourself from you know, the work being reused in that way without your consent. And they get it. So that I would encourage you to do that, because it's a great, easy first step.

    Jo Troy 17:59

    So would you so if somebody wanted to use your voice for an AI, for whatever it is, would you say is okay to do? So if you are protected with your contract and licencing? Or would you stay away from it? As a voiceover

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 18:17

    as a voiceover? I think it's your choice. I think if you have a good contract that protects her interests, in terms of its limited is contained within the contract, you remunerate it fairly, and you meet your other terms, wherever that may be quality, purpose, all of that, I'd say go for it. That is no more or less time dangerous than working in an other media and that particular output being used out of context or

    used in a way that you're not happy with. So that to me, whether you choose to do it is not the problem is the terms that you decided or agreed to do it on. That really is where your vulnerability comes in.

    And there's a little bit of education that you have to do because you on the other hand, on the other side of that conversation, you're working with clients in production companies, or also creatives, they're not lawyers, and they're super keen, they're super excited about this, that yeah, let's go let's use that contract. We've always used you sign it the site No, because that contract was not written for that with this technology in mind and it impacts your voice and your assets in a very different way to analogue or to you know, different type of recording. So we do need to have a contract that stay look to this that protects you, if you got that go for it. If that's of interest, if you do want to engage with AI, no problem, but don't

    want my advice if I can have lunch for other performers and voiceovers do let a theatre decide whether or not you want to work in that space. Just make it like you're not artistic or career or professional decision. Right. So let that be choice and excitement rather than fear of I don't know what's going on. You know, because if you've got a good contract theres no reason for you not to work in that space, in my opinion as a lawyer, but artistically, you may want to take your career different places. And that's a very personal decision

    Jo Troy 20:10

    speaking from experience. I've, I've had a few offers for AI. And yeah, I just I'm just at that point where I don't fully understand it. But like you said, it's about education. And if I see those two letters, I'm like, No, I won't ever continue to even entertain the offer or anything like that, just because I think it's still too early for me personally, to go down that road. And I don't want to regret it later. But I also agree with what you said, you just have to make sure that you cross your t's and dot your i's and make sure you know what you're getting into and make sure it's for a small period of time. But you know, a lot of people want the world and they want whatever cheap. So, you know, there's always somebody out there, that's going to do it. So don't just find somebody else. But yeah, it's not for me right now. But I get it.

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 21:00

    Oh, your concerns about? Is it for you? Or is it not for you? Is that a question of you're worried your voice may be used and manipulated in a way that you're losing control or use? Is it more a question of artistic creation? Reputation?

    Jo Troy 21:16

    The former is how is he going to be used? Where is it going to be used?

    You know, I've had clients who've I've worked with before, come back to me to ask if they can synthesise my voice to use for legal terms and conditions? And I had to say no, because even though the work would be really, really long, they've acknowledged that and they know to get me to record that it's going to cost so much money, that they said, Oh, you know, it will save you time, we'll give you X amount of pounds. But I said to them, Well, either way, it's gonna be a lot of money, because I'm not giving you permission to use my voice, even if it is just for this project. I don't. I know it's as Bob, I don't trust you. I don't trust anything right now. So I think for me, I'm just

    keeping the cards close to my chest, why not? Until I understand more with my rights and how everything can be used in a public space?

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 22:16

    No, that's very nice. I mean, if you don't have that trust level that you need with your clients, whether they're working in AI or something else, that's, you know, it's not bad is fair enough. That's what you need is one of your value in collaborating with people. a few of my voice over friends, they've decided to go down the road of creating AI versions of themselves.

    Jo Troy 22:39

    Can you please explain how this would protect the vo? And would that be worth it?

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 22:49

    So I think the question would be really interested in asking your Theo friends, where they see the protection come in, because as a lawyer, not, you know, looking at the contracts that they've made with the companies with the tools they use to create digital clones of themselves. On the face of it, it doesn't protect you more than a contract words more than the rights you've already got in your voice.

    And there are some like data protection, a little bit of intellectual property, but it's not too straightforward. You have more protection in the performance of your voice written voice itself, for example. So creating a clone of yourself as a protective mechanism doesn't work so well. It can help because it's a new or different commercial offering. So if a company wants to send a dice, you could say, Hey, I've already got it, do you want a licence, we'll use that one. And maybe you can negotiate a better deal, because you'll from a slightly, your starting point is slightly different. That's not really legal protection, that's just negotiation technique, or is a different commercial offering, as I mentioned. So there is it doesn't protect you, it doesn't add your protection. The only small possibility and that's a huge stretch is that maybe you would claim something like type of copyright in the clone.

    And if it's reused or competing clone comes up, then you could potentially make a really complicated argument and expensive argument in court expensive, you could court proceedings are really expensive, and often not used as a way to you know, as leverage to protect yourself as a performer. But that's, that's a that's a real big stretch, and therefore, I don't think is very realistic to look at that option today. So I'd be but perhaps, you know, the Jimmy thing I can think of is that you have some companies, AI companies who will collaborate with their talent to protect them and use some of their resources to protect them because they want their digital clone their creative for their talent to be the only one and clients to come to them instead of going to a competing company. And sometimes they will, you know, request a takedown from another platform because they have the resources and they'll try they don't really have a leg to stand on legally speaking to do that, but they will support the talent in that way. But again, that's a slim bit of protection you'd get there and it's not really rooted in the law is rooted in commercial relationships.

    Jo Troy 25:06

    And what would happen if I found out somebody was using my voice without my permission? What is the process? And do I have to get my suit ready for court? Like, what do I have to do?

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 25:17

    So thankfully, you have an easier first step than that. Because if someone else is using your voice, without your consent, chances are very, very high that they have access to recording of your voice to do that, right, they want to grab your voice live in a way, when you're walking down the streets there, there may be, they may have scraped a recording of your voice, they've come across online, on TV on the radio, they've used that to train their AI algorithm and then generated

    a synthetic Jo Troy, right, that sounds just about like, you're probably not as good, it's not that good, yet, it's not near perfect, but it's, it's still high quality, with the amount the right amount of resources going into it. So if that happens, you have a cheaper and easier alternative to going to court, you can request a takedown from the company, you could contact the company and or contact the platform that is disseminating your content, whether it's on YouTube, whether it's on social media, you can contact that platform as well, and ask for a takedown. And you would ask you make your request, who asked for you to take down using two different grounds of law two different rights. First, your intellectual property rights, because if someone uses your sound recording without your consent, there may have infringed to rates, your copyright, because if you made it home that recording, you own the copyright in it in the sound recording, and your performance rights, because that sound recorded encapsulates or fixes your performance in it.

    And that is protected. Also, on the invade performance rates. Every time that's infringe or used without your consent, you can ask someone to stop doing that, because it's a breach of your rights. And you can also ask platforms to do that. And sometimes you see it on social media, you see a little notice that you cannot access this video because it infringes copyright or something like that. YouTube has a slightly sassy comment right on that. And, and that would be why there would be way because someone else did that, you know, requested a takedown and as a platform, they have to do that if they want to stay neutral and avoid liability. And underground you can do when you're making your request is use personal data protection because your voice is classed as personal data. And even more than that is classed as sensitive data because in your voice carries a lot of specific information about you, you can tell us almost from you can tell potentially also their socio economic background, the accent, lots of things in your voice says a lot about you and the legislator recognise that and protected it with the highest level is protected at the same level as your DNA. So it is recognised as really special.

    So you can use either IP or personal data protection saying for your data to be collected and processed. If someone makes a clone of you, they're processing your data, and they need your consent to do that. And if they don't have it, there are small exceptions like free speech and things like that. But there's still need to respect your privacy and your it. So you do have quite a bit of protection to use. So you can use those two things. Because your consent is required before anyone uses your IP, or your personal data protection, personal data. So write those requests. Now how do you word it, I have templates available. And I'll share them for free on my website very soon in the next few weeks. So you can go and download the text is pre written, you have to put your name, put the title, you send recording, and you can copy and paste it and send it off to those platforms or those clients. I know equity will have very similar resources available for equity members very soon.

    So either way, if you're an equity member, you're covered, you're gonna get help, you can ask equity and they'll help you. If you're not, you're you can get the same level of resources and information from me and on my website or my social media. So either way, you should have at least a starting point or a starting information to get going with your with your request.

    Jo Troy 29:11

    And before we wrap up today, if somebody wants to reach out to you or get involved in your course that's coming up, where can they find you. And if you want to talk to people about what you're offering,

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 29:24

    yes, so if you want to find out more or get in touch, the easiest way to do that is to go to my website, Matilda pay this.com. So that's my first name, my family name.com. And you will also find me on social media as Michel pavers or a lawyer in your corner. And you will find out that the resources I've put out if you join my newsletter, you'll get that stuff automatically in your inbox. So if you're joined up every time I've put out new content and new resources, it will land in your inbox straightaway so that could be an effective way to keep in touch with what I do. If you have specific questions message me email

    me all the information is on the website. And as of this week, I have opened up my new digital course for registration. The first course I'm launching is about AI cruises. Ai clauses is that bit in your contract that you can add when you're dealing with clients to make sure that the work you do with them doesn't get reused for AI projects without your consent. And you can use that in various different ways in a way that doesn't change the way you do business today and the way you negotiate deals, it's really easy to just include that in your day to day practice. And I will tell you how to do that on the course. You will also you can download from my website at AI clauses templates if you just want to crack on and just grab that and use it tomorrow.

    And if you want to make the more of it or if you need a little bit more support to come on the course. It's open for registration for the whole month of June. And they will start in July. It'll be online and also available in live and recorded so you can follow along every week during the session as the questions director and in life, or you can binge all IGN. If that's how you learn and work best. Because I totally get we've got we're busy. We've been this is you know, you're you're recording all day you're getting clients. So if you don't have time, when we're all available live, you can just do it on your own and get in touch with me later. Again, the website will have all of the information. And because I love your podcast, and I know other people are, I've created a voucher of discounts with a link that will be available in the notes for this episode is use it you'll get 30% off. So go and grab that.

    Jo Troy 31:36

    We're gonna put everything down below. You've been amazing. You've told me a lot. I knew that anyway, but I'm sure we're being contact again, because it's not going anywhere anytime soon. i know where to find you now,

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 31:53

    absolutely Ask away. And if I go help directly, I'll point you in a place where you can get help or support from

    Jo Troy 31:59

    Awesome. Well, thank you for your time. And um, yeah, we'll be in touch soon.

    Dr Mathilde Pavis 32:03

    My pleasure. Thank you so much. And I'll keep listening to you every time you put out an episode. So I feel like I'm right with you again, even though it's on my own in my living room.

    Jo Troy 32:19

    So what did I take away from today's conversation?

    Don't be afraid of AI. There's always going to be new technology introduced to our world embracing.

    Learn as much as you can and keep up to date with your country standings with regulations. A good source of equity, as well as simply Google. Don't be ignorant. And the more you know, the more you can pivot and be in a strong position to protect yourself. Speaking of protection, the best way to do so is you guessed it contracts, contracts, contracts contracts. Make sure everything you work on has some sort of contract, whether that's inside the DM, email threads, word of mouth or anything that can prove what was discussed.

    Make sure you understand what you are getting involved in and include an AI clause in there.

    And lastly, if you have any questions or unsure about anything regarding AI, intellectual property law or ethics, useful resources, don't be afraid to reach out to professionals. They are experts in these areas. And we're here to help I'll link some inverted description

    thank you doctor matured papers for answering all of my questions. I have included all of our details as well as a discount link to her course for all of you to use. Make sure you use it. Remember, you can always reach out if you have any questions, subjects you would like me to cover in a future or any tips you might want to shift. Last of all, remember to rate cut down episode

    please. Okay, another adventure over till next time.

    Bye bye

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Hello, and welcome to another episode. Have you ever had something break, go missing or want to ask questions but don't know where to go? We searched the Internet for ways to contact so when and always buried in the most non user friendly place is a number. We proceed to call and are greeted by a pre recorded voice on the other end. greeting us and vet informing us on auctions we have to finally get through to the correct person. What's the day, we're going to hear from some of us people who voiced these messages and make them today's adventure is about IVR. IVR stands for interactive voice response. And this automated telephone system that combines pre recorded messages or text to speech technology to engage callers allowing them to provide an access information without a live agent. That's what the internet says. Anyway, I've done my fair share of IPRS and in the industry is like Marmite, and not exactly the most glamorous niche in the world of voiceover and definitely isn't the highest paying compared to commercial work. But there were a few people out there who thrive doing them and makes a big portion of their work. Let's hear from a couple of these lovely folks now to give their views on IVR.

    Nic 1:46

    Hi, there, my name is Nic Redman. I'm a voice over artist and a spoken voice and recording coach, also author of on the mic voice training for voiceover artists, podcaster speakers and presenters. And I have been doing this job talking to myself in a little padded room of varying shapes and sizes. For nearly 20 years, you might be able to tell from my dulcet Northern Irish tones that a lot of my work goes back to Northern Ireland. I am pretty prolific on the phones back there and all kinds of places. But the main ones I think that are recognisable to anybody not from Northern Ireland, as large brands might be the police service, their one on one helpline that's me, or Student Loans Company sorry, if it's me asking you to pay some of your money back. Also Historic Royal Palaces. So I'm often on the end of the phone, giving you opening times. I'm not sure about misconceptions, to be honest. But I think potentially if you're a newcomer, the fact that it's not better paid, I was a wee bit shocked at that, because it is at the lower end of the price rung, which sometimes seems weird considering how many people might hear you, you know, if you're the voice of a big brand, or a line that people would ring all the time. So maybe it's a money situation, I was a wee bit shocked that it is one of those slightly lower wage brackets, considering a lot of the time you are in fact selling on that you're a big part of the customer journey, and you're representing that brand vocally. I think some of the cons are, it's a bit repetitive, sometimes a little bit boring. And if I have to say WWW dot one more time, oh, dear Lord, I might just throw my microphone against the wall, they're harder than you think to do? Well, it's not just press one, press two, press three, like there's a lot of intricate structure in there that you do have to take time to get your head around. So when you first get started with them, it can take you a little while to make them sound natural, engaging, intimate, and interesting. And really get that idea of guiding the listener through that journey that the client needs you to go on. Pros for me are it's really quick, you know, it sort of becomes my warm up these days, because you get so familiar with the structure of the prompts and they're nice and intimate. So it's really easy to get that lovely talking to one person vibe. I just like doing them because I feel like I'm chatting to somebody. And that's a nice way to start the day. They're really easy to edit, you don't have to do much processing. And also you know, it's nice to be the voice of something because it gets regular and the client likes the familiarity and it's easy to come back to you for more on the do all add up you know bit by bit those little bits of money. If you get 1015 20 prompts and ago, it all does add up so it's it's good for client loyalty, which when you're building a business and voiceover is huge. You know, it was really my bread and butter as a newcomer and I learned so much doing them. They're a great way to cut your teeth. They're a great way to practice sight reading, learning to edit and process and honing your home studio setup as well. They're also so good for learning to deal with long, complex, complicated sentences because off Been, there's a lot of information to get in there. And a lot of the time they're client written. So they can be a wee bit chunky or peculiarly structured.

    Michelle 5:10

    So I'm Michelle wood. And I've been a voice a for artists for about five and a half years now, the kind of clients that tend to come to me I have, I have quite a lot of self employed people. So like plumbers or electricians or mechanics, and they just want a voice that isn't obviously them on their phone system, I think maybe it gives the illusion of perhaps a bigger setup. So when people call, it doesn't sound so much like they're just a one man band. So I do get quite a few of those. But apart from that, I mean, it can be anything really, there's a whole variety. I've been on telephone systems for care homes, go karting tracks, taxi companies, yeah, it is a real mix. One of the good things about doing IVR work is that often they can be quite short, so they're easy to fit in around other work. And if you're good at planning your day, you can kind of you can use IVR work to sort of fill those little gaps and is quite nice, because you can also offer a really quick turnaround for clients. One of the negatives, I think, is a lot of confusion over the pricing for IVR work. This comes from bulk IVR, where you'd have a big company with 100, or maybe 200 prompts to record and the voice artists would get five or six or seven pounds per prompt, but it'd be one big chunk of work. And somehow that 567 pound rate has become known as the rate for a telephone message. So because that rate also appears on rate cards, I think it's quite confusing.

    Jo Troy 6:48

    As you can hear, nobody really gets into IVR, most people do stumble upon it. And there isn't really a big incentive as it doesn't pay much. But that being said, it is a good place to get regular work, which does add up over the month. It allows viewers to practice their craft and gain some good clients along the way. Now, we have got some insight from behind the mic. Let's talk to the people that actually create the IVR themselves. And they can tell us more. I reached out to premier CX a company but I in fact work with regularly and spoke with head of creative David Richardson. I want to find out the origin of IPR rates, processes, and how to book more work in the field. Let's go. I'm gonna start off by introducing yourself and then we'll just know what it is you do.

    David 7:40

    Well, my name is David Richardson. I'm the head of creative at Premier CX. And as a company, we've been dealing with contact centres, which is where you'll find IVR for over 25 years, not personally. And we've been doing it for over 20 years myself. But so yeah, the company has a fantastic track record in that area. So we're the right people to talk to if you want to know about IVR, and particularly the voiceover game, just to sort of give you a bit of a feel for who I am. I mean, I want a long ago in my chequered past, read news on a few little local radio stations. And I've done a little bit of VA work myself. So I've been both sides of the coin, shall we say?

    Jo Troy 8:23

    So what is IVR?

    David 8:27

    So IVR is interactive voice response. That's what it stands for. And the weird thing about that is you might think from what that says that that means it's voice recognition, what we think of as voice recognition. So those systems where you phone up, and it says, you know, what we what can I do for you today in a few words. And then you say, I don't know, I want to pay a bill or whatever. That is a form of telephone system. But that is not actually what IVR is. There's a lot of acronyms and initials around this, so I apologise. But ultimately, when you're talking about IVR, for the voice over world, what you're really talking about is anything to do with those telephone systems that you call up and you and asks you to press one, press two, whatever. And there are some subtleties within that, as I say so IVR in our world is specifically those telephone systems that you have to press a button for, whereas the speech recognition ones are what they call NLU told you, there was a lot of initials, and that's not natural language understanding, and that is actually voice recognition. And the reason there's this kind of weird disparity and the the initials don't seem to make any sense is because they came up with IVR before we had voice recognition, so it's an old, it's an old legacy term. That's that's persisted. And that's kind of all a bit technical. And but as a vo ultimately What I'm going to do when I come to you, as I, as I have done on various occasions, Joe is we will ask you to record what we refer to as a prompt, most often. And that is short little bits of audio that might be anything from Welcome to premiere CX for the very beginning through to, for accounts, press one for sales, press two, although we do, we wouldn't repeat press too often, it's one of our best practice tips. But so yeah, we would, we would sort of mix and match that up, and then through into the messages that you hear in the queue, as well. And they for us, we would want those to be informative, maybe a bit entertaining, you know, those sorts of things. So there's a couple of different styles you need as a VO, when you're thinking about that. And sometimes the trap people fall into is they think, well, telephone systems have to sound a particular way. So they will though restrict themselves to a very formal kind of welcome to premier CX for accounts, press one for sales, press two. And they'll do this kind of singsong II delivery. And it's very much like a so much else to the world these days. It's now about conversational style. It's about bringing your own persona, when we talk to companies that we work with that we provide the audio for, we talk about brand, we talk about persona, we talk about bringing who that company is in their wider marketing strategy into their telephone space. So a voice like yours, Joe, which is you know, you've got that lovely, rich, warm tone, you know, that's perfect for brand A, on the other hand, somebody who's got a slightly higher, someone like me is a bit more, I guess formal, a little bit stuck in my ways, maybe, you know, I would sue brand B. And it's about finding those different voices and applying them. And then what we also want is we want within the message space, those wonderful skills that vos have around sort of those conversational style, those advertising messages, that ability just to talk naturally, and to convey that information. So it's it's a world of different things that we are looking for within a telephone system. Whereas I think even some of our clients have in their head what they think a telephone system should sound like. We're all about using the vos and your talents to change that effectively and bring it out, dare I say, into the 21st century.

    Jo Troy 12:55

    It's very interesting, you say that, because I remember when I first started working with you, I did have that, that full process in my head that I had to deliver it in a certain way, which for most people will sound like an RP kind of intonation, you know, kind of sing song. But yet, over time, you start to realise No, they want a specific sound, regardless of what it is that the client is looking for that and you hit the nail on the head, the conversation will read because essentially, you know, especially over the last few years, we as people have been calling help lines a lot. We hate them, for the most part. So you kind of want a relatable voice that you can be like, Look, I'm still annoyed. I'm still a bit pissed off. But you know, it's better than hearing a monotone read. Yeah, because if I'm quoting, I don't know, say Nike for something random. I don't I want to have a certain kind of voice for that, you know, and I think most people are looking for that. But I'm on to my next question. Is IVR only used for telephone systems? Or can it be used in other aspects in, in our everyday life?

    David 14:12

    I mean, generally speaking, that we're where 99.9% of us are ever going to encounter is going to be when we phone, our bank, our insurance company, you know, the contact centre of a retail store that we've we've you know, we need to ask them a question about a product or less we may have may have a conflict, heavens, but yeah, this is where most of us will will it will encounter it. I suppose it's possible some people might encounter it on internal systems if they're working for a large company, but yeah, generally it's it's contact centres and telephone systems is where IVR is. It's not really needed anywhere else. It's a very particular solution to a very particular set. scenario. And you made a really good point about wanting to have that conversational touch that, you know, you Nikes a really brilliant example, because you wouldn't expect to hear me reading, you know? I'm just, I'm just not young enough, let's face it. I mean, you know, I admit it, I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I am something the other side of 40. But, you know, I'm not Nikes target market, am I, but also, for us. IVR is about getting people through as efficiently as possible. You made the point, people get really frustrated by it. And you're right, you're absolutely right, people get massively frustrated by these phone systems, they would mean many cases, they'd rather be able to do it online, especially increasingly, these days. So when we do make that phone call, often, it's because it's the channel of last resort. Yeah, so having that personable experience that that can help calm people, and also having professional audio. And this is one of the things we say to our clients, so often is the there's a credibility there, the voiceover gifts. So that system, because you are a professional voiceover recording on professional kit, and we edit it professionally, you know, our end, it is professionally scripted, and that whole thing and the voice is such a integral part of that lifts that brand, from your local doctor surgery or the builder from down the road to a brand to a global or national brand. So it's massively important that that's what they hear when when you first hear that Welcome to or Thanks for calling.

    Jo Troy 16:54

    Why do you think human voices used more than automated voices? Or is it actually that automated voice they use more than human voices, especially in the current climate with AI? And that kind of things and budgets and whatnot?

    David 17:11

    Well, I would say this, because we I mean, we've been watching this closely, because we've had one eye kind of over our shoulder for I don't know, 10 years now, kind of saying text to speech is coming, what's it going to do? Is it any good, and we're kind of hitting that cusp, honestly, where some of these systems are now getting good, they're not brilliant. I would say, and we still see absolutely future of real voice in this industry. Because when we're talking to our clients, we are seeing a number of different things. And some of these brands are already saying that they would rather keep a real voice. Even though you know, these AI voices, these text to speech, voices are coming on and they are getting better. Some of our clients see a real niche, not nice, but that sort of credit value, that's the word I'm looking for value in having a real human voice. So there's, there's that aspect. The other thing is the current text to speech systems, I would say they're fantastic. In some cases, if you want to put an emergency message on, and you've got, you know, you know, your entire system is gone down at the contact centre, I need an emergency message, I need it now, I haven't got an hour to wait even. And you've got to just have it. And you know what, sometimes that's brilliant. And that's fantastic. And you can produce that through many telephone systems. And the reality is many telephone systems now come bundled with a text to speech option, but they are not as good as a human voice, they aren't they don't have the expression, they don't have the the natural understanding that a human being has for any individual script. And they're not as unique as a human voice in terms of if you want a brand and you and you want to have that, that thing that sticks out. And the other thing they're really really rubbish at is regional accents. So, you know, if you've got that something that makes you a little bit different as a voiceover, then there is absolutely still a place for you. And that's why I mean for us, we are incredibly happy, pleased and you know, keen to keep working with de vos, which I mean, who we've gotten, you know, long running relationships with and everything of course is for us. We I mean I personally I kind of see that there's there's a potential best of both worlds in our future, which is where as I say for this emergency messaging and things like that, and for quick changes, text to speech, AI voice fantastic, it makes it flat accessible. But then when you get into the in queue space, for example, and you want that lift, you want that specific read that ability to direct a human voice, that ability to just tell someone in a in a recording session a little bit faster, a little bit slower, a bit more emphasis on this sentence, I can't, I can't do that as easily with a lot of these systems, there's nothing you can do. But for a casual user of one of these systems, my take on it still to date, and these things are advancing. But to date, it's still, in many ways, far quicker and easier to produce a human voice than it is to get anywhere near that kind of nuance. Out of a text to speech system, the AI voices, they are slightly different technology, because text to speech is very much type it in computer generates the voice, you can do a bit of editing a comma here, write a word phonetically to try and trick the computer into saying it right. You can do these things. And that's another weakness, of course, is a human being I can say to you, here's a word, it looks like it's vi ta it could be Vita, it could be Vista, it could be Vita. All I've got to say to you, Joe, is it's pronounced Vita. Yeah. And you will pronounce them on on a text to speech. I've got a

    Jo Troy 21:29

    and I can give you options as well.

    David 21:31

    Absolutely.Yeah. And a lot of our voices are really good at that. I mean, a lot of what you know, you get sort of a couple of takes that you can choose from. So nine times out of 10 human Vo is going to be most of our videos, I say more than nine times out of 10. You know, it's right first time almost every time. You know, it's it's efficient, it is actually a really efficient way to produce audio. So yeah, I still see a lot of a lot of lifespan for vo vs text to speech, AI voices, as I say, particularly if you've got that sound that is yours, if you have a particular regional accent, or perhaps for international, because the key, of course, this is the other thing, if you are not just limited to English language, for example, that's a big plus for a VO. Because so many of these systems at the moment are primarily aimed obviously the US market because that's where the money is. And a lot of it has been initially created in in English language. So I mean, we produce audio in everything from English language, obviously to Tagalog, from the Philippines, and other languages that these texts or speeches haven't quite got to yet. And of course, all everything, pretty much everything in between. We do as well for global clients. In fact, one of our largest clients who I'm not allowed to name, but one of our largest clients are global and in multiple languages, they have made a specific decision to stay human voice.

    Jo Troy 23:17

    Okay, do you go actively looking for clients? Or do they come to you? And what is the process from, you know, writing the prompts to finding a voice to, you know, then the video recording and, you know, so on and so forth?

    David 23:32

    So the way we do it is that there's a couple of ways you can go about it. I mean, one way is, you could, you can go chasing tenders for the rest of your life, you know, looking out for people who are looking for this kind of stuff. We don't do that we are very much more active, proactive. Let's say we, we would go to a summit event, an expo, for example, where we get a chance to meet clients who are actively looking to improve their telephone systems. And they're looking at the the technology and all those sorts of things. So we rock up as well. And we have a chat to as many people as we can proactively. And then out of that we'll get a number of people who go Oh, wow, actually, that's really interesting. This thing you do to improve our telephone system. We we also do we do video, we do chatbot stuff, live chat and all those sorts of things. But we don't sell, we don't sell the technology. We improve the system, the customer experience is what we do. So a client comes to say, Okay, we're really interested, what can you do for me? Well, I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll phone your telephone system, we'll record it. And then what we'll do is we will we'll get that down, we will critique it. And we'll give them sort of a top line audit of their phone. And you'd be amazed how many systems in this country and globally are still using what we refer to as an in house voice, which is where they've got Steve from accounts or or, you know, Gladys from from sales to record their voice messaging, or in the larger contact centres where we mostly focus, you'll often find it's a member of staff from within the contact centre who's recording them. And you end up with a situation where you've got like, five, six different voices, you know, popping up at different parts of the phone system, we've all heard this, when we phone companies, the the audio clarity is poor, you can hear breathing in the background, sometimes God helped us wet mouth noises, you know, all of these sorts of things, we can we can call out, you know, all of that stuff that we you know, you know, your distance from the microphone, all that stuff is a voiceover you're aware of, and you know, how to deal with, you know, we hear all that. And then what we also do is we look at the flow of their IVR. So it's like, you know, it took us five button presses to talk to a human being, you know, you don't, nobody wants that nobody wants to go through five layers of menu. So we'll call out some of these things, we'll present it to them in a meeting. And we'll say, Look, this is where you are now. And the other thing we'll do, and you'll have been on a number of these, Jo, is we will produce a demo version. It's very short, normally, just one message and one small part of the IVR, that press button bid. And we will then present that to this possible client and say, Does this sound a bit better? And you know, it does. Because it's professional voice, you know, we've rewritten the IVR. And we have our own best practice guidelines that our script writers follow my team, the creative team, we have fantastic creative account managers, you may have encountered a couple of them show in your travels. And our guys, we will rewrite all of these things. But we can actually do that to a level if we actually go forward and then do a project with them. We can map that entire telephone system. So we understand what every option does, where it goes, how you get to an agent, what are those agents do? What are their skills, how to how can we divide up that so that we can then go back and re plan that entire phone system. So instead of five button presses to get through to a human being, most people are getting through to a human being in two, maybe three button presses. So you're reducing the frustration, smoothing the pathway, the routine that anyone follows, and hopefully making it better for every customer who calls. And there is a reality also, that we will be looking in this day and age for ways to promote self service options as well. And that's a very, very big thing in the industry. And any as any contact centre manager would tell you, because there's a reality in our industry that when you or I call up, whatever company we need to, and we finally get talking to that human being we're in a one to one relationship, they're just like we are now. And that's expensive. That is expensive, because that is that agent's time, only focused on you. If they're on a live chat, if I can get you to go to live chat as a customer, then I can deal with up to seven people. Yeah, sort of maybe that live chat agent can be dealing with up to seven people. So that's cheaper. If I can get a put put a chat bot in and you you don't actually have to call or you sell serve another way I didn't have to pay pay for that at all. So what you see is that doesn't mean and don't worry, don't panic, that doesn't mean IVR is going away, oh, it is here to stay. Because what contact centres should now be there for and where you want to be putting that expensive resource as a company is towards those complicated calls the frustrated call, you know, a vulnerable customer by which and that there's a huge range of people who fall into those categories. And you or I might fall into that category. At some point, depending on our particular circumstances, the cost of living right now everything that's going on interest rate hikes. If you imagine you're a mortgage provider, then right now you might find a lot of customers who perhaps up here you don't think vulnerable are suddenly vulnerable customers because they are in a very difficult position. So the contact centre and that one to one relationship is still extremely valuable. So the telephone systems that back it up and all those sorts of things is, is here to stay. I think what we will see is a move in terms of technology, perhaps away from what you the IVR to the natural language and speech recognition and things like that, perhaps a bit more. As those speech recognition systems get better and better. But that still means that for the voiceover there's still responses that need to be recorded. There's still audio we need to provide If there's still that in queue space, we still need to provide all of that audio. So the game changes. And yet, ultimately, you still need audio on that system. Because the simple fact is, that's how phones work. You know, if there's nothing to listen to the other end, then I mean, what, you know, what is it and these systems are designed to route you to the right place, so that the right agent speaks to you, and that they are the person who can solve your problem. So next time, you're on a phone call, and you think, oh, I'll

    Jo Troy 30:35

    just press 1111 as I normally do yourself a disservice.

    David 30:38

    I'm telling ya, well, I just say, actually, listen to the options, listen to the options would be what I'd say. Because otherwise, all they're going to do is waste time transferring you in anyway. And the worst worst case is they might say, well, I can't put you through you'll have to redial. So

    Jo Troy 30:56

    I know a lot of people who are voiceovers who are listening to this who want to get into the world of IVR How do you look for voices and how can they contact you?

    David 31:08

    So, I mean, from from our point of view, if you check out our website, premise cx dot code at UK you can find out a lot more about us what we do and you can there's there's basic contact details on there. So I mean, I'm on LinkedIn, I think you can look me up I think my publicly available if you if you want to, I'm in Connect, I am connected to a fair number of videos through there. But it's actually it's probably better just to sort of get in touch with the director and the studio manager my colleague Alex and his team will then vet any anything we get incoming but to be fair, most incoming sort of queries don't necessarily make it I'm going to be totally honest with you unless you've got something different something a bit get to someone like you Joe with that you there was something about your your tone that was we were lacking on our voice roster. And I think it's the same for any any production house what we're looking for his that thing, we don't have all that extra talent or something. And ultimately vos, we you know, we work with vos, we've had someone our books for ages. Occasionally, some of that does mean that they move on in life and they leave us but more often, we will go out into the world looking because we will come up with a project where it's a case of right Okay, so this brand is based in the Northeast of England. So we want a Northeast of England Regional voice. For example, how many have we got on our books? Well, we've got a couple we really could do with presenting maybe three or four options to this client for them to listen to a couple of male couple of female and that way or oboe different age groups, that sort of thing. So we will actively go looking and we will look on in the usual places. I mean, we will look at voice over you voice over UK and all those sorts of those those sites. But we will also put specific searches in for voiceovers that we've worked with in the past but haven't worked with for ages. Or indeed, we'll just do internet searches. And then you know, your your internet presence, or your LinkedIn presence, your social media presence, those sorts of things really help us then to find you. And it's our studio team who have that, that job of finding those voices. And then what we do is we will sign you up to our roster, we have as you know, a system called Prometheus studio, which we then can use to manage the sort of the sending of scripts and things like that.

    Jo Troy 33:40

    So yeah, we're gonna wrap this up. So um, David, thank you, you've you've actually opened my eyes to the world of IVR. I think AI has added a lot of people don't actually give it a second thought when we just call up these places and actually gives me a bit more clarity on to the prompts that come to me when you said them to me and what you want from me as well. So not only has this helped people that want to get into the field of IVR, but it's also helped me as well, with my job. So thank you very much. And I hope to work on many more projects in the future with you.

    David 34:13

    Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you you're a fantastic voice. You know, you know that it's as simple as that. So, yeah, I mean, if I can get you on a few more projects, right? Honestly, I would love to but yeah, thank you so much for your time as well and for inviting me on this has been brilliant.

    Jo Troy 34:32

    Now, what did I take away from today's conversation? IVR isn't going anywhere anytime soon, as it provides a very useful service to companies and customers on a day to day basis. Something that we often overlook. Long gone are the days when telephone systems or sounder say more and more companies are looking for more conversational approaches to resonate with their audience. So there is no such thing as not having a voice IVR And IVR is the guy to change your life financially. Rates are not going to change anytime soon. But if you want to be a successful Bo I was definitely not exclude the out of your repertoire is quick and it's a great way to stay active is the more you do, the more you earn and a great way to practice on the job

    thank you David and the team at Premier CX for taking time out to talk. I've included all of their details below as always, and if you want to reach out to me you can do so at Jo troy.com. Okay, another adventure. Not long left to go now for season two. Till next time bye

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy and I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    We all love watching films, right? The car chases and action scenes, that crew some monster in your favourite horror film that used to give you nightmares, or even a scene that doesn't need word only visuals and plucks those heartstrings. That word of film is amazing. Have you ever thought about those who are visually impaired and can't see these amazing scenes soaking emotions visually on screen. Today's adventure is about auto description. Bucha description is voices on the tin. It's used to describe body language expressions and other movements making the programme or the event clear through sound at is used for the most part for people with visual impairments. This can be found at the cinema at home to watch your favourite film. At the theatre gallery. The list goes on all vo I've been aware of audio description for as long as I can remember, it's only recently that I have been introduced to it as a voiceover. I've worked on a couple projects to date. And I must say it's not the easiest job in the world. That being said, it's very fulfilling to know that your work is being used to give someone the chance to do something that could not have done before. As I'm a newbie to this niche, have much more questions for novices. I think it's time to hear from some other voiceovers and give their insights.

    Fern 1:55

    My name is Fern Ludlum and being blind audio communication has always been important to me. I remember throughout my life, I just wanted to be on the radio, I always wanted to be part of it. And I studied radio broadcast communication both in the UK and then in the USA from my university degree. And I even managed to get some work as a radio presenter. Just over two years ago, my big audio description moment came along when one of my colleagues in the radio industry posted on their social media that they had narrated some audio description for a film. I knew from that moment that being a provider as well as a user of audio description was something I really wanted to achieve. And luckily, my colleague very kindly gave me the contact details of the person who had hired her. And they hired me to so I started as an audio describer on a very short film for a film festival. But as my experience and my confidence grew, I suddenly found myself in a writing ad for major productions, which was incredible. I'm just so proud of the work that I'm doing now, and I absolutely love it. In terms of some of my notable work. I think as a big fan of Ed Sheeran, I would have to start with the sum of it all which streams on Disney plus, I could hardly believe it when I was offered the chance to narrate the ad for that documentary about Ed's life. I suppose for me, it's not just notable for its profile, but also because despite his fame, so much of Ed's life is relatable. And as someone with a disability, I think one of the most important things I've learned is that although on the surface, our lives might seem very different. When it comes to emotions, we all are so remarkably similar. I think the sum of it all was a really powerful reminder of that. And it was just such a pleasure for me to help make it more accessible to people. To be honest, I'd say the main thing I dislike about audio description is just there's not enough of it. So in the UK, TV companies are only required to describe 10% of their content. That's tiny. And that just doesn't sound like a quality for blind people for me. And although some companies do, of course, exceed that 10%, there's still far too many programmes that aren't audio described. Some people say that cost is a barrier to that. But I actually think that's quite a lame excuse. I know, I've spoken to really quite high profile people in the industry who have said before that, actually filmmakers often spend more on snacks on the set than it would reasonably cost for them to provide audio description in their productions. So there's no excuse. And you know, it's the same in cinemas and theatres, there's this massive shortage. I've done quite a lot of work around this. And what I found is that if a performance in a theatre is described at all, it can actually only be for like one or two performances in a whole run. So if you're a blind person, and that's at a time that you can't make, you're effectively just excluded from that performance altogether in terms of cinemas, although undeniably more films are audio described now. The staff at the Cinemark quite often aren't aware of the equipment that's available to deliver that audio description or that equipment just doesn't work. So you can't use it. As you can imagine that puts you in a really difficult position as a blind person because then what do you do? Do you stay, especially if you're with your friends? Do you just sort of listen and hope to follow the story but not really get it? It's a really hard dilemma. And it's something that actually, it might not sound like a lot, but it can have a huge impact on a person.

    Ketan 5:26

    Hi, my name is Ketan Majmudar . I started my voice acting journey officially in 2020. talking specifically about audio description. My first job was a short film later in that year in October, with my move into feature films in late 2022. The most notable project I worked on was all that breeds. This was a foreign language documentary, which won at Sundance and Cannes, as well as being nominated for an Oscar. I wrote and voice the audio description for this project. I also have voiced a character for an NPC within a gaming IP called 2112. It was a long monologue and was a great character to play. What I love about audio scription is that it's enabling and expanding accessibility to the creativity and hard work of the creators and allowing these worlds to be shared with a wider audience. Also how it can highlight very specific details of a scene or action that can often be taken for granted. Probably the thing that I dislike most about audio description is a technical thing. It's usually very quick turnarounds, and often it's created after a film or show has been completed. So it can be challenging sometimes to get the essence of a scene over within a very limited time between dialogue or key sound effects.

    Marilena 6:46

    I'm Marilena Gant. And I'm a voiceover artist and actor. I've been a full time voiceover artist for about three years now. And I've been working on audio description projects for roughly a year and a half. I've been lucky enough to work on some really cool projects for audio description. I've worked on commercials through to documentaries, animations, TV series and films. Some of the clients I've worked for have been Amazon BFI, Virgin Media and universal. I love working on audio description projects, they're actually some of my favourite projects to work on. And one of the reasons for this is that I'm just a huge TV and film buff. So anything that allows me to watch TV and films for work is something I'm going to love. But the most important reason is that a couple of years ago, my brother had an accident involving his eyes, which led to some vision loss. And it was around this time that I was first introduced to audio description just coming across it on TV. And it became increasingly clear to me that a lot of our world is really inaccessible for a lot of people, and it shouldn't be. So I'm really passionate about making sure that projects I work on are accessible to as many people as possible. And audio description is a fantastic way of making sure that the amazing shows and films and documentaries that are being released are accessible to as many people as possible.

    Jo Troy 8:11

    It's so interesting to hear everyone's experiences, it makes so much sense that people with vision impairments could and should be used where possible to do or job description. But consensus is that there is a definite passion for what they do. And the feeling of enabling others. As much as it is work is rewarding enough. It's a lot of work and very quick turnaround. So if there isn't a passion or motivation there, it can make your job a lot harder. So I've heard from the voiceovers who performed the audio description. Now let's speak with someone who also produces and works in the industry behind the scenes. I reached out to a friend of mine, Sonya Costello Branca access Accessibility Lead at motion picture solutions, and someone who I've had the pleasure in working with. I wanted to ask what it takes to be successful in audio description, the process of writing descriptions to scenes, but different types of audio description, and more.

    First of all, I'd like to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you for joining me today. Yeah, this has been a long time, time in the making. So yeah, it means a lot for you to take time out and actually chat with me. So I know who you are. But for the people listening, would you like to introduce yourself and tell them what it is that you do?

    Sonia 9:39

    Yes. So I'm Sonia. I am an audio describer. But also, I'm leading the accessibility department at a company that does stuff for digital cinema. So I kind of project manage all the films that come in and get them all Do described.

    Jo Troy 10:01

    Okay, so what is the audio description describing, describier? Yeah. Could you explain more about that?

    Sonia 10:10

    Yeah. So audio description is basically translating visuals for someone that can't see them. You know, you can have audio description at the cinema on a TV show. on Netflix at the theatre and museum, you're basically describing, you know, for a film, you're describing what the characters look like, the locations, anything that's relevant, that helps fill in the gaps of a story that someone can't see. So audio description is predominantly for a blind and partially sighted audience, but it's beneficial to anyone, like if you find it hard to concentrate, watching a film, audio description can keep you focused on you know, if this is like a long scene where like, nothing's really happening, the audio description can keep you in it. Or if you're doing stuff around the house, it's like an audio, like an advanced audio book, because you've got the music, you've got the sound effects, you've got the actors doing the dialogue, and then you've got a narrator telling you what's happening. So it's good for everyone. Really,

    Jo Troy 11:22

    how did you get into such a niche area in audio?

    Sonia 11:27

    Well, it's a bit of an annoying story.

    Jo Troy 11:32

    You got time, come on. Well, you

    Sonia 11:35

    know how you hear about people saying they're in the right place at the right time. It's one of those. But so at uni, I did Media Studies, drama, production and creative writing. And I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do, but I knew it was something. It was something in that area. Yeah. And then when I left, I was a runner in a post production company. And then I was like, a production assistant at QVC, the shopping channel. And then I was working in a tape library at post production post production company. And I don't know what happened. Either they ran out of budget, or the person that was supposed to be doing the voiceover became unavailable. But they asked if anyone could do the voiceover for an audio description. And I volunteered and they're like, Oh, well, what experience do you have as well,

    Jo Troy 12:34

    as they do?

    Sonia 12:37

    Yeah. So I did that. And I've never heard of audio description before. And it was like, wow, I didn't know this existed. This is really cool. I think I kind of wanted to do voiceovers anyway, because I'm a little bit shy. And I I feel like it would suit me better because you kind of hidden a little bit. So we did that first one. I think the second one that I did, because after that, they just kept asking me to do it. The second one I ever did was the Duchess with Keira Knightley. So it was a big film. And I remember going to the cinema when it came out with my friends. And we asked for the headphones, because I did not believe that they would use my voice on like, a proper film. And so me and my friends would like sat in the cinema and my voice came through. And we were all like, Oh, my God, oh my god.

    Yeah, so it was really exciting. But yeah, so that's how I got initially got into it. And then that was 2008 and 2009 that I was doing those. And then I moved home for a couple of years. And when I came back to London, as I really want to learn how to do the scripting side. So I got in touch with the guy that was in charge of audio description, and one of the big companies, it was called ITFC. And now it's called Deluxe, and they do a lot of audio description. And I just called him and I was like how do I do this? And he was so kind he just invited me in. sent me some homework. Actually, while I was there, he was like, Okay, I want you to write down on a piece of paper. Like as many ways of saying walks, the man walks into the room as you can think of and I was like I just went completely blank. I was like, oh my god, I can't pressure because basically you have to find interesting ways of saying things or like more you know, specific How is that person walking? Is he hobbling is he know, striding like it really makes a difference to a description. Anyway, so he sent me away, sent me some homework, and then he really liked that. So he invited me in and gave me freelance work, which was amazing. I didn't know you just have to ask So yeah, and then and then from there, I'm someone who I used to work with, was working at the company I work out now. And he found out that I was doing audio description, and he invited me, while his, the CEO of that company invited me in to sort of show them how to do it. And then I'd been freelance freelancing for them ever since. And then I more recently started doing the managing of the project.

    Jo Troy 15:25

    So what skills do you think you need in order to do your job.

    Sonia 15:31

    So in the UK, they most of the time, the person that scripting is also voicing, so you, you need to be a good writer, you need to be a good listener as well. Because, you know, sometimes in the dialogue, they'll do your job for you. Like, they'll say something like, Oh, I really love your dress, the blue brings out the colour of your eyes. So you now don't have to describe that person's dress or the colour of their eyes. Because it's been done. Like on the voicing side of things, you have to not take the attention away from the film. So you can't be like, overly animated. So you have to be quite neutral, but also sort of reflect the scene that's happening as well. So you kind of have to be sense the tone and that kind of thing. Without still stealing the show.

    Jo Troy 16:19

    Would you say is different from being a writer then?

    Sonia 16:23

    I don't know. I think it's similar. What do you think? Because you had to go at it.

    Jo Troy 16:31

    Yes, I did have a go at it. So short. It took about me now. Well, it's, I spoiler alert. I actually came down to the St. Joe's thing was a week ago. Well, to kind of remember, but um, yeah, I did have a discussion with you. And I said that I felt when I was doing the job with you. I felt like I was being too Narrator In boughs being a narrator and I was trying to be monotone. But then the rates roomie wanted to be expressive or wanting to play with inflections and do all this stuff. But use it. It was good. So I'm happy. But yeah, I feel like there's this middle ground that you kind of need to hit between being in a radar. And then obviously, you know, not like, not like an AI voice. So, so to speak. But it's kind of like that monotone read with the emotion and expression. Kind of in the middle. Would you agree? What do you disagree with that?

    Sonia 17:33

    Yeah, I think I degree like a four. Because that was a trailer that you did, I would say it's kind of you can add a bit more to it just because it's the trailer and it is a bit more punchy. And also, I just used to really love you know, that like 90s trailer guy in a land. Yeah, time. I just feel like a trailer needs a little bit more. But yeah, yeah, definitely just like a neutral kind of your, you don't want to bore the people who are listening to it. But you don't want to detract from the, the film or whatever. And like, yeah, also, in terms of like the writing of the script, you want to be careful about using, you need to be a good writer. But you also need to know, don't use a really complicated word, because that person is then going to stop watching the film, like, what does that word mean? And then you haven't done your job properly. So

    Jo Troy 18:32

    what is the process from putting the ad to an image? And what does the brief look like when it comes into you? If you're allowed to talk about?

    Sonia 18:43

    Yeah, well, they kind of leave you to it. There are guidelines general guidelines. You basically. So the process of how I would do is I would watch the whole film so that I know where it's going, and what is relevant visually. To get the full story across, I time it because we have to do all the timings for it as well. So I time it as I script it as someone else I know, times all the bits of silence between the dialogue so that she knows how much time she has to fill. Yeah. Whereas because I'm writing it as I'm typing it. I'll write way too much information. And then I'll have to edit all of it down to fit in the space that there is. Yeah, so like I said before, you just kind of have to sort of say what people look like what their facial expressions are doing. Anything that sort of helps. kind of elaborate on what's being said. Basically, like one of the guidelines was, you know, you shouldn't mention race. If it's not relevant to the plot. And I think it was like 2018, I was thinking to myself, like, a film came in where like the main family in the film, were black. And I was like, I feel like this is the first time I've seen a film where the main characters are black, and the film has got nothing to do with race. And I was like, This feels like important to say, who is being represented? Because it's just going to be assumed these people are waiting, if I don't say so. So, now I'm just I think it's important to just if there's time to say it, you should say, everyone who's been represented whether race is part of the story or not? Because it's important, I think, yeah. So yeah, basically, there's like guidelines, but every single film is completely different. So there's always some challenge that you have to figure out what you're going to do. Oh, just going back to your question before about, like the skills you need, like to voice an audio description, like a feature length, audio description, like you need quite a lot of stamina, it can take a long time, especially if you're recording yourself, because you have to make sure that you're actually reading what's in the script, what that you're saying, in a way that makes sense, you know, it's got the right tone, you know, you have to really check, check it back to make sure that it, you know, you have said what is there? So it's quite time consuming. And it's not as well paid as, like normal voiceover stuff that you can do in much less time.

    Jo Troy 21:42

    Yeah, it does take a long time. I haven't done a long form one yet. But I can imagine they do take a while. So the brief content, you write the copy, you then look for voices, once you found those voices? What is you know how you touched upon it briefly just now. But what is the actual recording session? What does it look like? And if you are involved in a session, what is your role in the session,

    Sonia 22:09

    this specific ad software where it has all the timings lined up, and it only lets you record within those timings. So say you start a bit late. And then you don't finish before the end of that timeline, it will cut you off. So you have to do it again, to fit into that time. Whereas I found like some new workflows so that I can work with people who aren't specifically audio describers, because a lot of audio describers have their own software. And now I'm working with voiceovers who don't necessarily do audio description. But we found a way to import the scripts into whatever recording software they have. So that they have the timings and that they can record that way. It's a bit more fiddly, because I think you have to be a bit more, you have to manually place things in the right places. Yeah. So recently, actually, one of our clients wanted a celebrity to do the, the voiceover. So they asked me to be in the recording session to sort of direct it. And I basically spent a lot of time just saying, Can you say instead of their, or their instead of our because if if something hasn't already been introduced, like a pig walks into the room? If you say the pig walks into the room, the person listening is gonna be like, what pig that pigs never been mentioned before. Why? Why is it? So I kept having to say, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, I'm really sorry, you're gonna kill me by the end of the session. But can you say? It was driving him mad. But yeah, so basically, if you're, if I'm sitting in the session with someone, I'm basically reading the script and making sure that it's what's being said, is correct, because it might not seem like that important, but it can then start confusing the story if, if it's not right. And then

    Jo Troy 24:14

    once it's been recorded, then what happens with that recording? Do you then edit yourself? Or does that go to somewhere else?

    Sonia 24:23

    So then we send the recording to our sound guy who works at the company a he'll clean it up, and then do bits and pieces to basically, the stuff we're working on is going to the cinema. So once he's cleaned it, it will all be in the right place. We'll then send that to our QC team who will watch the film with the audio description playing just to make sure everything's where it should be. You know, the descriptions are correct. Yeah. And then it goes into the cinema. And like I said before, you can He asked for headphones and most films will have audio description on so you can go and listen to it.

    Jo Troy 25:08

    And then if there was someone out there that wanted to get into Eber, what you do on your side or even the voiceover side? What are you looking for? And are there places that they can maybe learn more or get training or stuff like that?

    Sonia 25:23

    It's a really annoying field. Like there's not much out there like I, because I, when I was started doing audio description, like I really felt like, I really had to teach myself because there weren't really any courses or anything. I think, UCL there's a summer course for audio visual translation, I think they cover audio description, there. And there's an audio description training, like an online training on FutureLearn. But it's more sort of geared towards theatre audio description. Okay, so I recently started sort of watching that. And it's kind of Yeah, again, not on film, stuff, you know, recorded because theatre is life. So how does that work? Well, so they, they, they do it in advance, they'll have like a video of the show, they'll have seen it before. And then they sort of script it, they, they'll, they'll also have the script. So they'll sort of script it. But obviously, the actors do it differently every night. So you just have to make sure you're gonna say the description when they're not talking. I don't know how the live audio describers do it. It's quite scary.

    Jo Troy 26:40

    Yeah, I didn't even know that was the thing. By obviously, it makes sense. Like, like you said, in the beginning of our chat, it's useful people, you know, we've can't see so it makes sense. You know, in all instances in life, you're gonna need that. So why would it be different Professor Silly me?

    Sonia 27:00

    Yeah, it's great. I went to see one literally before, like, it was the Friday and then on the Monday, everything went into lockdown at the beginning of COVID. And it was, it was really a great experience. And also, the good thing about theatre audio description is before the place started, they'll they'll go into like, into depth about what the stage looks like. And like what the characters look like, because there's probably not time to say it while during the play. So it's quite good in that way. But in terms of like resources for people that want to do ad for films or TV, the best thing you can do is just listen to ad like as much ad as you can. Can you hear the ice cream

    Jo Troy 27:47

    making me hungry?

    Yes, you have to wait, just listen to it. Wait until the interviews premieres, they can go out and get it so no bit longer.

    Sonia 28:00

    So yeah, like on Netflix, you can just put, I don't know, if you put on the subtitles, but it's in the same place where you'd find the subtitles, you can just put the audio description on. And I just like listened to loads of audio description and just sort of saw, you know, bits that I could use or bits that don't really work. And that's a good way of learning. Also, Netflix has audio description guidelines online, which are quite good to read. And they're quite concise. The European Blind Union has just released a handbook on high quality audio description, it is really long, it's like 98 pages. And that's just the first part but that's like more in depth look at it. So it's, there's ways of kind of learning about it. It's just reaching out to the companies that do it to see if they can help.

    Jo Troy 28:49

    I guess it's kind of like with any creative field is just doing the hard work the craft getting kind of a portfolio and experience and reaching out to people at the end of the day. Yeah, cuz

    Sonia 29:02

    you can just you could just take a programme and then try and write your own ad script for it. And that would be a good way of going to a company and saying that this is what I haven't done it before. But this is what I've done on now off my own back. And that will be quite helpful.

    Jo Troy 29:18

    Okay, last question. And this is just the fun one. What is your dream job in AD? I don't want to ask the man I mean ad

    Sonia 29:31

    Okay, cuz I was gonna say, like one more I swim with sharks well, so on the voiceover front, like I always wanted to do the voice on the tube. That was like a dream or you know, like the Come Dine with Me guy. Oh, yeah, yeah. Where he's kind of a bit sarcastic. You know, there's like loads of personality to it. Now But on the on the ad side, I feel like the job I'm doing would be the perfect job. If the clients sent us the film's like, not, like 10 minutes before they're about to be released. You know, if we had, like, loads of time to do it, so that you could do it, like properly, so you could get, you know, like blind voice over artists involved, like I have done a couple of projects where there was enough time that I could adjust the workflow so that we could have a blind voiceover, do it. And then I sort of put all the recordings into the right place, and it took it took ages, but I was just like, this needs to happen. And if there was just more money behind it, because there's just like a real lack of value in accessibility, which is a shame, because, you know, people who are disabled deserve to have the same things that people who who aren't. So, like the job I'm doing now, it'd be great if there was more money more time. But sadly, there aren't. And also, if they just thought about accessibility while they're making the film, rather than just like plunking it onto the end. Because you know, sometimes there's no space to say what's happening. So, yeah, well,

    Jo Troy 31:24

    thank you for giving me not your dream job. And you know, but thanks for that. So the high or the low back?

    Sonia 31:37

    Well, you never know, maybe one day. Maybe I'll get those things.

    Jo Troy 31:43

    Maybe lasagna, thank you again for joining me today. We got through it in the end. But yeah, I'm sure a lot of people out there gonna use this and probably get in contact with you. So be ready for an influx of emails of people wanting to do ad so yeah.

    Sonia 31:59

    Okay, and just people. Like, it takes me a really long time to respond, but I will.

    Jo Troy 32:05

    Does it does people be prepared? If I kick inside? Yeah, yeah, have a great rest of the day, obey.

    Sonia 32:16

    Thanks for having me bye.

    Jo Troy 32:23

    So what did I take away from today's conversation? If you're enjoying the rating, this is definitely something that you can get into. It's not exactly the same. But it's a good starting point when starting off, even though I've never had to write a script. If you want to excel and the bigger jobs in audio description, most of the time, you will be expected to write your own script. So creative writing should be expected on your CV in some way, shape, or form. Even though you can thrive in this particular industry, it is still very small, and not a lot of the mind out there. That's not saying that people don't need it. But the lack of education out there means that both visually impaired and fully sighted people don't know if or where it's available. This needs to be changed. And finally, like any creative field, in order to get into Wait, you have to know what's what doing and most of the time the only way to learn is to consume the media. So if you want to get into this field as a video, put on those audio descriptions the next time you watch your face show and take notes Thank you Sonya and everyone that contributed to today's episode. I for everyone's details in the show notes below so you can reach out if you have any questions. Thanks for listening everyone. Another adventure, Dornoch. Until next time, bye bye

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Anytime we consume visual media, whether that's Film TV adverts video games that can go on, we are so wowed by what we see and often take for granted for sound elements, which make the whole experience possible sound such as music composition, sound effects, and sound placements, to name a few. These elements are so integral to not only visual media but media of itself. Today's adventure, about sound design. With deep rock get into production with the podcast and working on amazing new projects all the time, I see more and more how complex putting together a project from a standpoint of view is, once my job is done as a performer I'm done. But sound designers really needs to be on the front foot from the beginning to the end, and be thinking about where to sound we placed at all times. I'm glad to shop now and take a step back as I want to hear more about what kinds of projects they do, how you become a sound designer, and more. Let's hear from a couple of experts.

    Gareth 1:35

    My name is Gareth Fry. And I'm a freelance sound designer, which I've been doing since about 1996. I started off specialising in theatre sound design creating shows such as Harry Potter and the Cursed Child and complicities the encounter, but also work on special events such as the opening ceremony, the 2012 Olympic Games work a lot with museums creating sound design for exhibitions. I've just been working with the VNA in London on their a new exhibition diva. And over the last few years, I've been doing more and more work in VR and xr technologies. One of the most valuable skills you need to be a sound designer, his communication skills and the ability to sell your work. Obviously, you've got to be good at working with sound and understanding dramaturgy, how to tell a story with sound. But you've also got to be able to sell those ideas to a director or producer and get them on board as well. I think that's something that took me a long time to learn that it's not just enough for the ideas to stand by themselves, you need to sell them a bit, you need to give your collaborators a context for why this is a good concept and why it will help tell the story or whatever it is you're trying to do with the sound. One of the best parts of my job is when I'm working in life theatre because that's when I get to experience how a live audience react to my work. It's something you don't really get when you do studio based work in the studio, you create the work and then you send a file off into the ether and then some months later people will hear it and respond to it. But working in theatre, there's a much more direct connection between what I create an audience hearing it and responding to it. A piece of advice I'd give to aspiring sound designers is to go out here and see as much different work as possible across many different fields, film theatre, fine art, architecture, music, everything is useful and relevant, and analyse that work. Why is it good? Or bad? What worked? What didn't work? Can you work out the choices they made and how they got from their intentions to their final product. Because when we're creating something, it's often artistic in nature, there's a degree of subjectivity about it. You have to know your own aesthetic taste, what constitutes good sound design to you what constitutes bad sound design to you. And it's only when you've really established your own aesthetic baseline of what's good, and what's bad that you can really begin to articulate what you want to achieve or to aspire to, and why you want to make one artistic decision over another. Also, when I'm discussing sound design with a director, I'm often using analogies to other mediums I might talk about one particular moment being an extreme close up and another being a wide shot, borrowing the language of cinema camera framing, or I might talk about the palette of sounds that we might use often will reference films or art exhibitions or music to try to find the way we talk about what we're trying to achieve. So the more you watch and see and visit, the more reference points you'll have to discuss your sound design.

    Suze 4:33

    My name is Suze Cooper, and I run big tent media which is an audio post production company supporting podcasters with their editing and show notes and uploads and marketing and strategy and all that kind of good stuff to do with audio. I've been working as a sound designer as well since around the end of 2019. It was really accelerated by the pandemic of course, and as a lot of other people did as well, I decided to jump on some courses learn a bit more about it. It's something I've always been interested in having worked in radio for quite a long time, I was the news editor of the local commercial radio station where I live here in Kent in the UK. And I was always fascinated by the imaging of radio stations and how you put together the sound of a station. And so that was my opportunity really to learn a bit more about sound design, learn a bit more about why different devices, you know, like our phones and our computers and all that kind of thing, why they make the sounds that they do, and why we react to those sounds in the way that we do. It just completely fascinated me. So I basically read every book I could possibly find on the subject. And I also enrolled in a course with point blank Music School, which is a global school, they do have premises in London, but I did it all online. And I studied with them. I studied their sound design course and then their advanced sound design course, and came away with a distinction in those which I was thrilled about. I learned so much stuff, I learned all about how to programme, digital synthesisers, I use massive, I used Native Instruments to create different sounds and also the idea of field recording how to do that the best practices, the best stuff, to use the equipment to use what I was looking for, to get a really good recording so that I could come back into the studio and create kind of more immersive and experiential audio for people. And all of that was just incredible, I learned a great deal by doing that. So the most valuable skills, I think you need to be a sound designer, the top one just has to be listening, you just need to listen an awful lot, whether that's to lots of different types of music, whether that's when you're walking down the street, and whether that is actually reflective listening with your client in order to get to the actual real nub of what it is that that's needed from a project, you need to listen and you need to reflect back and you need to listen again. And so listening is absolutely the key skill. For a sound designer, you need to get outside of your listening comfort zone and listen to all those things that you don't think you like. So quite often I'll put on like a random playlist from Spotify. And for me, that's research, it might it won't be probably something that I might have chosen to listen to. But it certainly gives me a more rounded idea of what's out there what people are listening to. So the misconceptions of what I do as a sound designer, I think sometimes people just don't imagine that sound design can be a job really, am I a musician? No, I don't really put myself down as well. And I play some instruments and I can certainly, you know, make some some sounds with different things. I play the guitar, I've got MIDI keyboards, I've got, you know, modular synth setup, all of that kind of thing. But am I a musician? No. Am I a producer? Well, sort of. And for me, it's kind of a really weird grey area because yeah, I'm I'm a Podcast Producer and I can produce your podcast. But I can also do this other little kind of tangent thing that could add an enhance your podcast, which is around sound. You know, sound design, sometimes on a podcast might not be music, we might be talking about, well, how do we get this this crowd sound mixed properly and imbalanced with what's being said with the dialogue so that we've got a more immersive experience, you know, how can we use this 360 audio to really bring someone into what we're talking about? So yeah, it's a really weird grey area. I think people just don't think of it as a separate thing. So I think it can be hard for people to work out what I do when I say I'm a sound designer. So one piece of advice I would give to aspiring sound designers is just to keep your ears open. Really, everything is a reference point. And one of the most useful things that you can really do is consider your own behaviour and reaction to sounds. So stay alert to the sounds that you react to and just really think about what it is about that sound that makes you take the next action.

    Jo Troy 9:14

    Nice. It's so good to see the different types of work that exist within sound design, different entry points and different approaches. But there's no one way of being successful. But we should all know this by now in this industry. I want to learn more. I've had my appetiser and now I want to talk with someone. This time around I get to speak with the amazing XO cuckoo to a friend of mine and someone who I'm just an outright fan of. I first heard their work last year of the audio production awards and I was hooked. Previously the creative director of sound at The Guardian. Their work has featured on BBC airwaves, Spotify and in physical spaces like the Barbican and sun das boom festival. They've received the Grand Prix Nova, British Podcast Awards, areas and many more. I wanted to speak with them and ask about their journey, how to become a sound designer, and more.

    Thank you for joining me and welcome to the pod. I did ask you how you were about how are you feeling today?

    Axel 10:29

    I'm feeling good. I'm feeling I'm feeling grateful for the slow pace that I'm intentionally trying to navigate in this world. Because yeah, man, like dealing with a couple of illnesses makes me put things into perspective, you know, so, yeah. potentially positive and grateful. So yeah, you're right.

    Jo Troy 10:49

    I'm good. I'm good. I'm, you know, I've been waiting to get you. Me, virtually. So I'm excited. And looking forward to the chat today. Um, so, you know, let's, let's get started, I guess. Um, so I would like to start off with letting the guest introduce themselves and letting the world know what they do?

    Axel 11:08

    Well, well, well, well, it's, I like I like answering this question. Why today? My answer is this. So today, I'm gonna say that, I mean, I'm grateful for the fact that there's one constant, which is my name for now. Anyway, I'm explica cuccia. I am an audio artist, and poet. And what that means is essentially, I like to make magical beautiful things and things that are intentionally Well, I say magical and beautiful things about things that are intensely just, well, I have made a new resolution that I want to commit to making people I don't know why this pause, but there's, there's there's a there's an intention of this comfort of uncomfortability and urgency. And, you know, I feel like just because something is magical and beautiful doesn't mean that it is wishy washy, essentially. So it's trying to have trying to create. Yeah, urgent and important things that exist in the way that's uncompromising. And still make you feel nice, but I am more interested in the things that make you think most of them never. Yeah, based on things that have happened in my life as of late. I'm just like, Nah, I can't I can't have people think that what I make is like, I it's good to feel good. And it's important for that, but I feel like there's there's Yeah, so many things are burning and dying to speak. Yeah. So yeah,

    Jo Troy 12:46

    yeah. And and in terms of, you know, sound design and all Joe work, what kind of projects do you usually work on? I know, I know, you work on a lot of different things. But in in today's talks context, what kind of projects do you usually work on?

    Axel 13:01

    So projects that I work on that are a mix between sound design and music composition for there could be even like one off pieces? Or I'm getting into my first audio drama, which is nice. And yeah, but like you do your your your series, whether it's recently for example, like the series from decode, which is essentially breaking down every breaking down a UK rap album, and sound designing and bring it to life and working with the album's musics of the late last one was sketches Konichiwa. So that was a lot of fun trying to like yeah, use a palette, whether it's from the ground, a grain palette or a Japanese palette, and being a fan of manga and anime that was a very the two worlds was yeah, I really enjoyed bringing those two worlds together. But yes, I'm designing for like, yep, Series, Miniseries, one off stuff, whether it's myself of documentaries, stuff like that, or the new world of audio drama and audio fiction, and yeah, other talks. I'm sure there are other things that will come to mind. Yeah, exactly. So

    Jo Troy 14:19

    where did this passion come from? Like, when did it click in your head? This is what I want to do.

    Axel 14:27

    The mythology of that happened, like the cheesy answer would be like, Oh, I've always been doing it. And I guess it's like this thing of waiting for the opportunities to come work and you know, use that as an excuse to say that yeah, this is the moment I want to do with my life. i It's what is in having conversations with people, whether it's mentoring folks are doing talks I realising that it there is a truth to the fact that I realised I have been interested in sound design, specifically as well as, as well as music. I've always been a music person making music and I feel like that answer can be like, Oh, at the age of 16, when I was first introduced to my first music making software, digital audio workstation Cubase was the first thing, which then after that fast forward to, I forget how long it was, but working at The Guardian, it became full circle because I, they worked on Cubase. So it was a nice, like, welcome to that. But yeah, my interest in sound design. I remember even as a kid, for example, I had to pretend I would I would pretend to be a dinosaur from Jurassic Park. I would, I would recreate the sounds that I heard in Gundam Wing, one of the enemies and just like, even just like looking back at clips, Dragonball Z clips, I, I realised how acutely I pay attention to the Foley and the sound effects and how they make things sound the way they do. And this was like, and I was like, Oh, that's a curious choice. Why does it sound like a squeaky chair when a sort of comeback or footstep would be like that, for example. So there was always an unconscious interest in sound and how sound heightens things. Well, professionally and I guess, educationally. My interest happened, though, all my desire to want to keep doing it happened when as soon as I discovered how I could, MIDI music, MIDI keyboard, music production, and then music production wasn't just music production, because I wanted to create a world a soundscape of thing to feel immersive, immersed in, and then I didn't know about radio production until I worked at The Guardian. Really, to be honest, a real thing. Oh, so you guys, you guys do this stuff all the time. This is how you literally okay, I took the wrong course. But I didn't really but it wasn't like, Oh, okay. You know, and everything joyfully happened by accident in terms of just how people were responding to the stuff that I made. But yeah, I yeah, I mean, I can, yeah, I can, I can get into that too, just in terms of just like how it was, like I made. I remember there's a point in my career where I wanted to be when I wanted to move away from working with singer songwriters, and work intentionally just as myself as an artist, but I didn't know where to fit myself in the box. And I had management and it was just kind of like, I'm an artist, but music is my medium apparently. And but people didn't really know how to like categorise that. So I had to do, just do the things that will get me in the places that will give me with the with the people that make things happen. But it felt like too much of a compromise of my own self. And I felt like you know what, I there's too much on myself that I want to figure out and expand on i can't i It's it feels too soon to settle on just one box. So I I stepped away from it and sat on the projects that I made. And I was like, I'd rather wait 10 years to release this thing than to prematurely do the thing that didn't feel right. And at the time, what was paying the bills was working at a radio station as well as as a studio manager there. So that was okay, it was it was it was it was it was okay. You can only listen to races for so long on this on this radio station that was missing. I'm working on. But yeah, that's what pay the bills. And then, but so like a project's about. It's like, okay, I write poetry. I like I can make grammar music. And I like building worlds. Again, I didn't know the word sound design existed. So for me at that time was like, like making worlds. So let me just make a project about that. And, you know, I saved a bit worked with directors that were like, okay, yeah, I've got a project would you like to help me produce this thing in my own pocket, you know, we'll get the gear film the stuff work around the concept. So and that was fun. And it became a thing was just like, Okay, this is my digital business card. I've got the poetry soundscapes and all that good stuff like that. This is like all of my all my skill sets can be check this out SoundCloud. It's there. You can you can check it out. And yeah, I'm glad I made that, because that was part of the reason why I was head on to the other guardian to work at them today in focus. Because, yeah, they were looking for someone who felt a lot of well, who could creatively interpret the brief in terms of like, yeah, this narrative storytelling with the news that they were trying to create. I was like, okay, yeah, I mean, if mixing is I enjoy mixing. So I'm going to, I'm going to mix the shit out of the stuff and here's your ambitions, and they, they'd like to. Yeah, I never looked back. And then after that, a little McDow from falling tree was like, hey, yeah, like how you mix? Have you have you? Do you have an idea or do you have things? I work on this thing called shortcuts? Do you have any ideas or things that you sat on and thought about that you'd like to share? Check out the series. I was like, yes. Okay. I never had a short customer. I'll check it out. Check it out. A couple of stuff. That sounds interesting. I I've got this idea that I've been single for, like for years, decided, like, I was like, Yes. And then I have sorted that for about four years, I had three months to make. And then that was the most agonising thing. But then it was the most like, it was literally a rewarding thing as well, because it was my radio debut that got gold at this international audio festival called third coast, which again, I never heard of before. But it was it was really affirming, and surprising to have folks respond to my work in the way that I did, whether it's sound design, whether it's producing or storytelling, which at the time again, I didn't have the language for this, like, just speak from the heart. And now I'm like, What's,

    Jo Troy 20:41

    what's the process? Like in terms of like, how much freedom do you have for them? For example, if I came to you and said, Here's a project I'm working on, it could be an audio drama, it could literally be a podcast. What does the client normally give you? And how much freedom do you have with that? And is there ever pushback?

    Axel 21:02

    I can, there's definitely pushback. There is also a language thing, where, you know, you come to me with this, this this podcast idea, and, you know, you say, is a serious thing. It's all or no list of fixers, it's like, oh, it's a fun thing. It's about it's about animals and cuteness, and just how much like we don't appreciate what they do is like, okay, cool, bubbly, fun. Clicky blanc on the keyboard, sound design, find some sounds, and this like, oh, no, like that as like, Oh, okay. What was what did you mean, then? And that becomes a conversation, a dialogue. And sometimes after even after those conversations, I think I understood it, and they're like, Okay, do something like this. And then we'll give you an example. rather than it just like, Oh, you're in creative initiative, which is fine. I just find it frustrating, like artistically sometimes where it's like, oh, this is the wrong kind of happy. But I've actually found it useful now to like, use colours instead of words. So when you join our to say, want this thing is about animals, and we really appreciate it. And I really want this to feel green and pink. Okay, tell me more about that. And, you know, we then have a conversation about the accuracy of what our subjective experiences or the desired effect about it is. I depends on what at what point in my career you'd asked me about my creative freedom? I think now there is, I don't like it, per se. But there is this thing of like, oh, yeah, actually, you can magically up, I don't really need to make the effort to explain to you, I will just, I will just tell you the top line, and you will get it, which is fine. But most of the time I do. But it's not fun. I don't I don't enjoy just assuming that I know what you're talking about. Because it makes it it makes a difference. It's like if you draw again, thank you to me. So yeah, this is the thing, work your magic because like, Okay, I will work my magic and find you will probably like when I make but I don't get much out of that creatively, and interpersonally. So I'm very mindful about who I want to engage with now, in that way, because I want to feel good about what I'm making, rather than just a cog in a wheel, or NAFTA for which is also another problem. Sometimes when people forget about sound and a process quite often, it's like, by the time they come to me, they made, there's very little room for the sound design to also tell the story that you're trying to tell, which again, is very important, because it's yes, sound design is storytelling. And it's part of the script. It's not just furniture, we're just decoration. It can it can be an it can be an integral part of the storytelling. But yeah.

    Jo Troy 23:40

    Where do you get your inspiration from? And how do you stop yourself from from becoming repetitive with sounds that you use?

    Axel 23:49

    That's the That's the That's a good question. Because I think there's like a thing of like authorship I do like certain sell more. If I say this, I'd have to use the substantiate that, and I can't write. But either there are styles in which I like to polish a thing, whether it's like with a reverb tail, or whether there's a kind of like, rhythmic. There's a way that I like to follow the rhythm of speech or find the dramatic pauses in for example, an open over podcast, I feel like as I owe an accent way of doing this will be speech to be speech drop, then we're back in or something, I don't know something. There's a kind of pattern that I know that I kind of realised that I do. And it's hard to it's hard. It's hard to kind of articulate because I know because again, I need to be stimulated and what I do, I tend not to otherwise I get bored quickly. I try to find ways to switch it up as much as possible. So I can Yeah, but if I get it, if I want to get a job done, it's like okay, I'll do this, this, this and this and that works and that's fine. Could you remind me the beginning part of that question, the first part of that question. Um, so

    Jo Troy 24:57

    the inspiration Where do you get your inspiration from From

    Axel 25:02

    music more than anything, I realised how, because I haven't music making background I used to work with singer songwriters and rappers and stuff like that there is a lot of conceptual album works, whether it's hip hop, or whether it's electronic stuff, or I like the way music, the vocals are an instrument in itself that I think I really treat my mixes in the same way. Yeah, and that kind of painting with the vocals as an instrument rather than the vocals is the thing that sits on top of everything else kind of thing that that everything is horizontal and mixed in and involved as opposed to layer or hierarchy, a hierarchical approach. So that's something in terms of like music, music mixing that I find inspiring. So things that are just find fun. And that way is one way films and cartoons. I I really enjoy the experimentation with that, and especially animated cartoons I really enjoy. How to Play was sound. I think, because of my four year old, I was gonna use my four year old son, but actually I just I like watching that kind of stuff. So it's like it was kind of like, my son is a revision excuse to shamelessly shameless, indulgently again. But yeah, like, I'm looking forward to watching Super Mario film and spider verse, the chorus of spider verse two, because I just know that sounds gonna be sick. And I feel like yeah, that's that kind of cinematic inspiration is another thing that I take from I draw from. And also as well, I'm really interested in the psychology of sound and how we, as humans interact with vibration. And I think those kind of like, whether it's books on indigenous relationships with the world, or just like quantum stuff, or sources, where they talk about how we relate to phenomena, I find that really interesting, because I feel like there's a real Yeah, subconscious relationship with sound that people don't know that we, we don't know that we do. And I think the best way I can illustrate that is it's kind of like, depending on the type of podcast you want to create, there's a difference between now and now, you know, in terms of rhythm, and when we hit the next thing and work and stuff like that, there's something that happens to the body, that you realise that, oh, I'm meant to take in this this piece of information for just a little bit longer, rather than just move on to the next thing, something. Neither of them are wrong, but there's a desired effect. And I feel like yeah, you can you can feel it. So yeah, connect the body with the sound and how you process things, and I think, got a completely different experience.

    Jo Troy 27:57

    How do you draw that hot line between making a beat, versus I'm making a soundscape for this? This audio on board is vocals that I'm working on in the context of it's not a song, or you've been asked to make music but is there a part of you that's like, has this basically stopped yourself quit this might be sounding a bit to be like, or does it not matter? Does it as long as it works, it works.

    Axel 28:26

    I think the hotline is the brief and the energy from the person I'm collaborating with. If it's something that's myself, I struggle to ay, ay, ay. If, for example, that question about making a hotline, I will get to decide where that hotline is. And if, if Yeah, so if it's something for me, and if it sounds like a B, it sounds like something that feels more musical than radio audio, then that's fine, because that's something I sent myself but if I just want to express something, let's say again, okay, so about about the school run, and I want to intentionally think play with rhythm of cars and the flashing lights and road rage and all these kind of things like that. Maybe it does make sense for it to feel like a beat to then in to use rhythm as a kind of gravity to then show what it's like then to descend when the rest of red mist when the red mist descends, for example, a heavier musical motif may make sense, but if I tell myself with that same subject that actually you know what, it's just gonna be pure sound and soundscapes and, and field recordings. And I'm going to see is hard because I'm still thinking of rhythm, windows, things to kind of do that. So like maybe again, but those would be like the assignments I would get myself to, to kind of like limit because I do find you Like with limits they are with limitations you do find creative solutions that you may not have if you just unconsciously just do what feels if you think you if you're doing what you that just feels good. And like that's great. But again, I get bored quite quickly. So I need to feel like I'm involved in this rather than just like an unconscious creation sometimes.

    Jo Troy 30:22

    Yeah, so what's the what's the weirdest thing that you've been asked to do? sound wise, but what's the weirdest way that you created a sound?

    Axel 30:31

    Whoa. What's the weirdest thing? That's very interesting, because it's my relationship with when I kind of like almost hope that people will let me get weird.

    Jo Troy 30:43

    Unconventional, unconventional, that's probably a better word.

    Axel 30:47

    Okay, unconventional and unconventional way. I've like made a sound mixer sound, we've done a thing. I think I would say I really enjoy. I actually really enjoy. Okay, what feels like I mentioned, okay, I will answer this in a while. But something else also comes up. But my, because what comes to mind is like I really enjoy using sounds that are badly recorded or sounds that are like, aren't recorded on a professional microphone. Then mixed in the way that oh, you know, that actually sounds okay. Oh, that is, um, that actually adds a texture. I really, I really liked that. Because it's versus whole idea of professionalism. And like, you know, people spending like 5000 pounds on a microphone that you can't even tell us that that sounds better than something recorded on your phone. So that's one side of things in terms of like that feels like traditionally unconventional, like using interviews from people who have recorded who are yet on record on the phone or something like that. But in terms of like, hold on, does the sound just picking up? Is that bad? Okay, great. Yeah, it sounds like unconventional terms of like, what feels weird and unfamiliar. I'm sure. In terms of when I make soundscapes or montages of like things I feel like, okay, it's one of those things where I know examples of how other people have done it, but I can't think of somebody who's like something that I've done, but it's the kind of stuff of like when they, when they use animal sounds, particularly an animal sounds to achieve a desired effect, like a scared horse. Okay, as an example, I haven't done this, but I just use this as an example of just like a sound designer who would use a horse name. And before they charge, like horse, people would say that, that there's a particular name that a horse does that they only do a male horse only does when they are aroused, and about to have sex with a female horse. So that horse naturally wouldn't make that sound. You can you can product you can do this a will never make that sound unless it's about it's about to have sex, but use quite often a lot in films. And you would you wouldn't, you would never know. So I guess it's Yeah, I don't know, man, I really want to give any, I really have to, like,

    Jo Troy 33:18

    you just don't want to give you a secret.

    Axel 33:22

    I really feel like I have done something in terms of like using a laugh or using a sound or a theory in a way that was like I reversed it I pitched it, you would never know it could be me singing or something. I know I've done something like that, but I just call it

    Jo Troy 33:41

    Okay, so if there's people out there that you know, want to go down the path of sound designer, what as advice would you give them and what are the steps that maybe you would have done differently in the past to get you to where you are now?

    Axel 34:01

    I would say if you're if you're interested in it, don't get bogged down. Don't get bogged down in are you using the right things are using the right software? Are you doing that because it's like you've got the vision, you've got the thing in your heart, whether it's a visual sound design thing, whether it's audio Fantasia that you want to create, find the free stuff and play with the free stuff there's loads of free stuff out there and just play and if it's if it's stuff that says like don't worry again, if I say again, but like if you if you just want to create and test and see if this is for you. Don't worry about the legals or just like just use it because you're not going if you're not going to use it for commercial thing and you're doing it for yourself and maybe you share it on SoundCloud for some friends to listen to then do it you know you because you're not intentionally saying hey, this is this was this this is like all of that all of that red tape just gets in the way of the creativity. I kind of like liken it to the same way when you're trying to write I actively turned off Like spell check now, because I get annoyed seeing that I've spelt something wrong. Was that something wrong? I just need to get the idea. Yeah. So like, disable the spellcheck in your creative process that allows you to, and that will just enable you to make the thing that you want to make and then worry about all the technicals afterwards, is something I would say with that don't get bogged down with the technicals, whatever programme you have. They all do the same thing, just different shortcuts. Yeah. And yes, share it, like see, share it with folks that you trust or trust that folks that you feel like will give feedback that you value is terrifying. It doesn't get easier feedback. It doesn't it really really doesn't. So you may as well may as well just like accept that and just get into it and just find the people that yeah, that that master see whose opinion you value in that way. And also, like I feel like in the audio world as well, specifically the off the so called people who have big who are the big names you never know. Just email them find their website and just say hello, grab a coffee, you know, I feel like all the folks are happy to connect every now and then. I've listed a nice little balance between like yes, I'm going to socialise and okay, I'm done socialising. I'm gonna go now it's like, yes, okay, that's fine. You don't need to be weird about it or like have like, five hours drinks or something like that just overcompensate with the fact that they feel bad. They want to end it now. So do the thing, do the thing. You got to do to

    just go because you don't know if he's watching. And I think that's, that's, you know, that's that's there was a usefulness in that social media. Very true share, because they excited to you. And you know, that's that's the case, you know, and be honest with that. And yeah, man, but excuse to geek out. I feel like you know, we pretend to be cool and serious. And Laura has a full cover. Yeah, we can we can have fun with it. So. Yeah.

    Jo Troy 36:54

    Well, again, thank you for taking time out today. And yeah, I'm looking forward to hear what's next. Well, maximum.

    Speaker 4 37:02

    I'm always reminding myself but yeah, no, thank you. I appreciate it.

    Jo Troy 37:06

    Thank you for watching. Yeah, I'll put all your information below so you can check you out. So if you get some fan mail

    so what did I take away from today's conversation? Learn to take direction. When first starting off, you're going to be working from briefs, briefs, briefs, briefs, or whatever the name of the game is to be creative, you are still going to need to fulfil all of a client's expectations. Think out of the box. Eat, drink and sleep sounds in every aspect. What do you set an emotion sound like to you? And why? How would you make that sound? Sound design is around us over time and it's your job to interpret that as accurately as possible. Finally, there's no rulebook. If sound design is your passion, and it's something you want to do, then do it. Start today. There are lots of free talks, programmes and resources online that you can try your hand out to see if it's for you. We were your four

    Thank you Axel Susie and Gareth for taking time out for this episode. I barely scratched the surface with this topic. So if you do want to find out more, you can always reach out you can find the details as always below. What can I say? We have come to the end of a novice season. I want to thank everyone that joins me this season as a guest sponsors who have supported me and most of all a big thanks to you for listening. sees a free we'll be back in a few weeks we have more amazing topics and people. That's it for this adventure and season two back

SEASON 3

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sisa free have a voice of this audio adventure. I'm so happy to bring you on this journey with me come a long way together. We are not stopping anytime soon. To start off this season, we are going to be diving into the Word of west of God. But what the hell is a voice of God you may be asking? No, it has nothing to do with religion, but is a term used in theatre and staging and refers to any anonymous voice used to deliver messages to an audience, whether that's for TV shows, or an award show, etc. This is something I've done a fair few bit over the last year. And I must say they're real high risk, high reward gigs. Definitely get the adrenaline pump. As always, I want to learn from some seasoned vets in the game. And oh, do I have some big names in this episode? Let's go.

    Katie 1:26

    Hello, I'm Katie Flamman. I have been in voiceover since 2015. That was when I got my first voiceover gig. I do lots of corporate and commercial voiceovers, banking and finance clients like how I sound so I've worked for people like Deloitte, American Express Barclays Bank, I also do lots of medical explainers and medical reports for clients like Pfizer, and the NHS, and commercials for clients like the British Heart Foundation, and Sainsbury's. All kinds of jobs really. And I should tell you, I have won the One Voice Award for voice of God twice, once in 2018. And once in 2021, I do get booked quite a lot for this sort of work. And the clients are quite diverse the Environment Agency, the T S times educational supplement schools Awards, the class bar Awards, the mixology bar awards, a theme is emerging. I think what makes a good voice of God isn't just about your voice. It's about how empathetic you are to the audience. It's all about them. Randy Thomas, the Female voiceover, who did the Oscars for I think nine times she was the first female announcer, at the Oscars, only took 64 years for them to hire a woman. But that's a whole other kettle of fish. And they have done much better in recent times. Anyway, she says, You should make sure the person you're introducing feels like they're the most important person in the world at that moment. And that's something that I've really always taken with me. The other thing is to be super prepared. Always have a plan B, write it down your backup scripts, I'll talk about that a bit more in a minute. There are two main things that I like to do before a voice of God gig. The first thing is to make sure I've got my backup scripts. Now those are the scripts that you hope you're never going to have to read out. But the ones that say the fire alarm is sounding please calmly make your way to the exits, or the scripts you're going to use. If somebody's taken ill on stage, those kinds of things. They're going to look to you to say something, and I don't know about you, but I get tongue tied. So it's really good idea to have it written down. The other thing is to have researched what you need to say out loud, practice. If you don't know how to say somebody's name, find out ask the client, can you please find out the name of the pronunciation of this person's name. I've done the T s schools awards a whole load of them for a number of years. And I phoned up schools to hear how they say the name of the school and the answer phone message or even spoken to a person not giving away any secrets. By the way. If somebody's been nominated for an award and they don't know about it, you don't want to be the one to blow that surprise. For anybody wanting to do more voice of God work, I would suggest that you follow and learn from experienced voice of God gods and goddesses on social media, but also follow and connect with event production companies, people who are likely to need your services. Because if you're on the radar of those people, they're gonna think about you when they are looking for a voice for their next event. And if it's a good fit, could be a gig for you. And if you're just starting out and just want to get experience, volunteering at a low key, maybe a charity event could be the way forward for you to build up your confidence and take things then to the next level. And the last thing you can do is particularly if it's a live event, but even if it's pre recorded, be super helpful, be friendly, go above and beyond, because the wonderful thing about voice of God work, whether it's a conference or an award show, is the chances are, the same event is going to happen again next year. And if they liked you and liked what you did, you might well get booked again the next year coaching.

    Peter 5:25

    Hello, my name is Peter Dickson. I'm a voice actor, and I've been in this profession for roughly 43 years now quite a long time longer than I care to remember actually. And over that period of time, I've done nearly everything you can do in voiceover. I've done promo advertising, commercials, TV and radio, cinema, television, and radio entertainment shows, big live events. I've done video games animation. And a couple of years ago, I actually did my very first audio books, I think I've done more or less everything you can do. Well, there are many misconceptions about this job as those who do it will know our friends think we we sit in our studios in our pyjamas, and the work just flows in magically. And all you got to do is, is read something out loud. I mean, basically here. I mean, that is what we do. But maybe not in our pyjamas. But well, sometimes I've done that. But no, there's there's actually so much more to it than meets the eye. When you look at it, it looks quite simple. It's beguilingly Simple, actually, in practice, it is incredibly demanding. And it's every day is a learning day. For me even after 43 years, I'm still I'm still learning things about this profession, and how to deliver other people's words in a way that makes it sound like you're not reading it. Preparing for any live job, of course, is well there's only so much you can do. But the key I think is to be warmed up to be able to deliver something at a particular time. The worst thing of course, is to open your mouth and either nothing comes out or you got the dreaded frog in the throat. So vocal warm ups very important. Humming is a great thing to do. I remember having a chat with America's leading Female voiceover in live events, Randy Thomas, she is the voice of the Oscars in America. She had a great technique for warming up, she asked the sound supervisor to silence her microphone just before she went on. And then she heard the director counting down from 10 to one in her ear, she would count along with him. She did that principally because she knew that if she did that, before she opened her mouth live on the air, she was confident enough to her that something would come out. The events industry in the UK and indeed globally is huge. There is an event almost every night of the week in most big London hotels and hotels in other major cities around the country. And they all need an event announcer whether it's live or pre recorded, so there is plenty of work around and it's very below the radar. How do you get the work? Well, you could register with one of the many speaker bureaus online who will act as your agent, or you could go direct by simply looking at events that have happened in the past. These events usually occur annually. So you know, when they're coming up roughly. And just approach the organisers and say, Do you need an event and answer If so, great. Here's my demo reel, send it to them and follow it up with a nice email a week later. See how that goes for you. There is plenty of this work around we'll can't do it or I can't do all of it. Neither can Alan Delco to does most of it at the moment. But there is there is a lot of it around so good luck if you're if you're out there trying to find workers a live event an answer is very, very rewarding.

    Jo Troy 9:05

    One of the most important things I've learned in the field is that prep is key. Whether that's warming up the voice getting familiar with your lines or any words you may be unsure on the pronunciations, communication is key. Flexibility and being able to deal with any last minute changes is also a thing. As Katie said, a Plan B is a massive price for amazing insight, guys. Okay, now for today's featured guest I've got the pleasure to speak with Jonathan Clay's definitely a voice you would have heard on your screens over the years. He's best known for his work on Saturday night TV shows such as Ant and Dec Saturday night takeaway. Beat the star, one of my face. I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here. I wanted to ask him about his roots into voice of God work, what it takes to excel in this area. And any other tips for any aspiring for This is of course out there. Without further ado, here we go.

    Jonathan 10:08

    Hi there. I'm Jonathan clays. I've been a voiceover artist for about 20 years or so. And I've done just about everything you can imagine a voiceover might do, including stuff like TV continuity, commercials on hold, narration, stuff like that. But if I had to put together my greatest hits album, I'd probably choose some of the kind of big national or international TV commercials. But I've also been the voice of some very well known TV shows like, Saturday night takeaway. I was the intro voice of that, didn't he do well, I'm a celebrity. Get me out of here. I did three series of that tech, Santa. Lots of things with Anton deck. And really I think I was there plaything for a while. And then a number of other shows as well, which led me to doing live events, Voice of God work. So award ceremonies, stuff like that.

    Jo Troy 10:59

    So how did you get into Wes of God work

    Jonathan 11:04

    by accident, which is kind of how a lot of these things happen, isn't it? I remember it was a number of years ago, and I didn't even know I was doing voice of God at the time. I didn't know what was called Voice of God. And I want one day I had a phone call from my agent at the time. Who said what are you doing on Friday? Do you want to do Saturday night takeaway? Oh, I've heard of that. Yes, please. That sounds quite nice. And I thought, well, I've heard of it. I've never actually seen it. So I went on to YouTube. And I thought, Oh, right. That's what it is. Yeah, I'd like to do that. And looked at some YouTube videos and thought, yeah, that's probably the kind of thing they want me to do. I looked at these different kind of show segments for kind of competitions and segments on the show. And turned up for the first session on the Friday morning, because we used to record it on the Friday, it would go out to an audience Friday evening. And transmission on Saturday evening, went in the production manager said, right, here's the script. Do this. If we like it, you're in. Great. No pressure, then brilliant. So I did it. And she said, right, you're in See you next week. And that was brilliant. I did it for three years. It was just amazing fun. But at the time, I didn't know it was called Voice of God. I was just booked to be show announcer. And I only found out it was called Voice of God about five years later. But I was never actually booked to be voice of God. But it was voice of God.

    Jo Troy 12:33

    So when you got your first you know, you got that call. Then you went into, you know, audition, so to speak. What did you do after the in between to get ready? Like, did you how did you prepare yourself?

    Unknown Speaker 12:46

    For that first one or for all of them?

    Jo Troy 12:49

    That first job? And yeah, and and how has that changed in a way that you prepare yourself now? For that first

    Jonathan 12:55

    job. It was just like any voiceover session, really, I didn't really know what to expect. Because when when the production manager for the show found me initially, there was nothing on my profile that said he can do TV shows. I'd never done one before. And there was no content on my show reel that said, He's the voice of Saturday Night takeaway. I don't know. I don't know how they chose me. Immense good fortune. So I went into the session that day, just treating it like a voiceover session. But always in the back of my mind thinking this is a lovely opportunity. But if you don't do this, right, you're going to be you came that close, but you didn't quite get there. And somebody else got it. And there was there was always that awareness in my mind. So yeah, otherwise I just treated it like any kind of voiceover session that you do where you think, damn, I really want this job. I really want this don't mess up. Are you putting pressure on yourself? Don't mess up. And and it went okay, was great.

    Jo Troy 13:57

    When you were doing the TV shows you were doing it live when they were filming, and it was being aired? No, no, no, no,

    Jonathan 14:02

    I wasn't. I would always go in on a Friday morning. And then they'd play to a studio audience on the Friday evening. So I was always pre recorded, and then it would go out on the next day on the Saturday evening. And I'd be sitting on my settee watching me and thinking or overthinking wasn't very good. We should have done that a bit better. Because you always think that, but yes, it was pre recorded that the more always the morning before. And then it would go out or be played to an audience that evening, I think a live audience and then it would be live on TV the next day.

    Jo Troy 14:39

    So how does that differ? The pre recorded versus the live stuff the way where you do to announce the stuff. Oh, wow. Which one do you prefer? How does that differ in terms of the way you prepare and yeah, about the job itself?

    Jonathan 14:52

    I love them both, but they're very different things. I've never done a live TV show every time I did a TV show Don't Like, say I'm a celebrity, I did that for three series as well. I'd go in and do a session to cover the entire series. It was just one one voice session. And then the rest of the crew that worked on that TV series, they'd fly to Australia the next day. For me, it was a trip into town, I think. And I think London was quite excited that they were going to Australia the next day. So they were always pre recorded for the entire series. And other shows I did, I think I did one with Vern Kaye called beat the star. And again, I went in there for about half a day recorded the entire series in one go. And some of it would go out months later. The difference with life stuff is some of the same principles apply, you know, some of the same disciplines, the same skills, but there's just so much extra stuff bolted on that you've got to think about as well, like, there are 500 people looking at you or listening to you. And you can't sit in the studio and think, Oh, that was quite good. But I think I'll just do one more, you get one go, don't you get one take. And it's got to be right. And the other thing is that it's far more involved, it's far more to think about in terms of disciplines that you need to have as a voiceover artists. So rather than just being in the studio with a producer or self record, you're sitting with the production crew for the event and talking about award shows now rather than TV shows, you're sitting with the production crew. So you've got the production manager sitting next to you, you've got the lighting person, you've got the sound person, you might have another person that does visuals. And then you've got the host who might be 100 feet away who you're interacting with. And so far away, there might be a pillar in the way as well. And then the extra complication is usually at awards events, you you wouldn't use a condenser mic, you'd use a directional mic, or handhelds usually, but you also get to wear like a comms headset, which will have one ear on one ear off, and a lip mic so that you can take direction from the production manager, or the producer, which always covers your left ear. So you can't hear anything in your left ear and your hearing directions because they insist they want to kind of have you on calm so they can give you cues for when you know, they want to be completely reassured that you're going to do your bit when you have to to sync with picture and other stuff like that. So it's a lot to think about. So you've got all that live audience, you've got an extra headset, you've got your handheld mic, and you've got the host who's 100 feet away, who you're trying to engage with and react to. And that's just an extra series of things to contend with versus sitting in a studio on your own or with a producer. But it's good fun. I like the lifetime. It's hard. It's a lot harder. But it's

    Jo Troy 17:46

    obviously we're all humans, we all do make mistakes. Has there ever been an instance where you, it doesn't even have to be like a huge mistake. But it could be something where like you said before, you know, you could have said that differently or better.

    Jonathan 18:01

    We always think we could do something better. Couldn't we know we're our own biggest self critic? And then you actually hear it and it's fine. No one cares. It's you know, if it's good enough for the product, saying it TV show that the production manager is happy with it, then it's clearly okay. But we're always very kind of fastidious, and nitpicking and slightly obsessive.

    Jo Troy 18:23

    What do you think in, in your opinion, makes a good voice of God? Or announcer? What skills do you?

    Jonathan 18:32

    Well, again, it's all the same. It's all the same kind of disciplines have have have the same studio skills, they you know, the that's the strong, clear voice is there is the obvious given forum for an answer. I like to make it quite tongue in cheek if I can, I like to kind of make it slightly ironic in terms of if it's fitting for the event, I like to do that. That's not a given. It's not a must. But it's something I do that I just makes, I think makes it more fun, and probably more engaging for the audience. Because that the whole nature of say, awards events, we're not, we're not talking TV shows here. But in terms of awards events, you've got five 600 people, they can't all win an award. And so as the evening goes on, yeah, more and more people realise I'm not going home with an award. I'm going to chat to my mates now. And we've been drinking since five, and we're gonna have a nice time. And so I try to make it more fun and engaging. So I think that's kind of a skill. And then of course, there's the multitasking element that I talked about earlier, which is, you know, can you perform in front of 500 people? It's not for everyone can you perform while you've got these people that you're working with giving direction, your headset, and sometimes, you know, they're on comms and you're reading out your bid. So it's the other side of reward so and so as walked up to To collect their award for potato grower of the year or young potato grower of the year, and so they walk up onto stage and it's a sound so has been growing potatoes since the age of Fornes. always been passionate about Maris pipers and then the you know, somebody might accidentally talking to comms while you're reading out your kind of tribute to that person. And it's about, you know, they don't mean to, but there's a lot going on, you know, staying composed when that's happening, you know, you've got to read your bit while someone's talking in your other ear, in your in your in your comms headset. And I think that's that's definitely a skill. That's that's important. I think another one, which I never ever, ever intended to do was, you know, the whole nature of voice of God is that you're largely seen as this kind of omnipotent voice, this powerful voice that kind of is in the ether. But you're not seeing your herd but you're not seeing well, often you are seen, because usually, for the events that I do, again, we're talking award shows here, pre event, they so they start off in the bar at say five o'clock, and they have a few drinks, and then they go to the pre reception drinks for some more drinks. And they have some Prosecco and having a nice time, and they're chatting, and, and then somebody has got to make them move from that reception area, into the, into the event area to go to their table so they can have more drinks. And that's, that's the voice of God's job. So you go there, and you stand in front of them and with your handheld mic, and you have to make announcements. And the you might be talking to three, four or 500 people and they look at you blankly and they think no, I'm having my drinks, I make them enjoy myself, please go away. And then five minutes later, you do another one. And so that's another element of the job that people often don't realise, which is you have to stand there visible to them looking relatively presentable. Thankfully, you and I are gorgeous, it's okay for and you know that and to kind of usher them into where the awards event is going to be. And that usually takes two or three goes because they're having a nice time. And they don't want to go.

    Jo Troy 22:06

    One more question before. Yeah. If there's anybody out there that is listening to this and wants to do some analysis work for some work? Is there any tips or resources that you would recommend for them to check out?

    Jonathan 22:19

    Well, my main advice would be please don't because I like doing it. But if you insist, and you have to do it, I think having a in terms of, I suppose again, we can split this into TV, and we can split it into awards, if at all conferences, events. And as you know, we you know, we we had to reschedule this, this this chat from last week, because out of the blue, somebody came to me and asked me to do a voice of God for a BBC show the night before. Yeah, and the I think the principle there is that, in terms of the TV work, it's so elusive, I don't know what you actually can do to present yourself with that, apart from having the usual stuff, a good profile on a good website, preferably with a good agent, and some kind of content that makes them attractive to a production manager that wants to book a voice. But like I said, when I was booked for Saturday night takeaway, which was my first ever TV show, there was absolutely nothing on my profile that said, this guy can do TV shows, and I just I don't know how they found me, but somebody must have seen it and thought we liked him. So I think in terms of TV shows, they're so elusive, it's very hard, apart from doing all the usual things, which is having a relevant demo, a good profile, and preferably with a good agent, so that that person, you know, you can defy the odds and be very, very lucky. And that person who needs that voice finds you and thinks again, we like him or her we like we like them in terms of in terms of other awards, say awards voice of God. Well, it's the same principle really, it's about having that web profile and having something relevant. And I guess in terms of an award show, if you think about it logically, they cost 10s of 1000s of pounds because I mean they cost a fortune to put on the very extravagant, they're usually at somewhere grand like a stately home or, or a five star hotel, you know, often in London, they paid 1000s of pounds for the talent for the host the paying your fee as the VO G they pay for the production crew that proof the catering or the fears, they cost a fortune. So how are you going to persuade the person the event manager that's booking for that event that they can trust you with their event? Because you get one go? So I think that's that's that would be my suggestion, which is how can you present yourself that that person looking in thinks, yeah, we we trust that person.

    Jo Troy 24:56

    Thank you for your wise words. Allah, Allah show our people that. Yes, of course. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for taking time out. And I'm glad you make it work. Pleasure. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to hearing your voice on TV summit sometime soon soon.

    Jonathan 25:14

    And its a pleasure, thanks. Thanks for asking. Thanks for chatting.

    Jo Troy 25:20

    So, what did I take away from today's conversation? There is not one thing you can do in order to get these kinds of gigs. That being said, the more live shows you have done will prepare you for what is about to come. Keep all your demos up to date, and always keep active. You have to make yourself so you know, live renouncing is a job that can change the lives of keeping a level head is a must. Don't panic. A word that has popped up a lot in this episode is preparation. Get to know what you will be announcing and why. Any names you don't know how to pronounce, asked. have alternative lies you may have to use in times of need, like dealing with some awkward audience members or announcing emergencies. Remember, there's no room for retakes. You only have one shot at this kind of job. Unless you've got good luck, guys.

    Thank you, Jonathan. Katie, and Peter was sharing so much knowledge in this sense. As always, I will include all my contact below. You can pop it. Okay, that's the end of another adventure for this week, and the first season free room. I have so much more coming. So make sure you're following the podcast. Don't miss it. Till next time, bye

  • Jo Troy 0:03

    Hello voices. My name is Jo Troy. And I'm a multi award winning voiceover and host of a voiceover audio adventure podcast, the bi weekly show where I learned about the voiceover and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    Hello, voices we meet again, get ready for another adventure. This week, we are going to be focusing on the wonderful world of radio voices, and of course consumers. We love radio. If we are not voicing ads to be broadcast, we are listening to our favourite songs and shows via our favourite hosts and DJs. Please happens so seamlessly and go over the listeners heads. But how do these shows we love so much get created. I wanted to find out more about the wonderful people on the other side of the microphone. Who does what and why today's adventure is about radio produces. Of course, I know a couple people who work on radio but my knowledge on this topic is basically nothing. So this week, I'm going to go ahead and get talking to the pros. Let's see what they have to say and hopefully can get more of an understanding of what they do.

    Lisa 1:27

    Hello, my name is Lisa and I am an Assistant Producer at BBC Radio and extra. Some of the shows I've worked on are the likes of Simon Anderson at DJ target rampage. I've worked on a bunch but currently I'm working on the breakfast show with an idea Jay, I think I got my first break in uni. I was studying broadcast journalism and Nottingham Trent University, and the editor of BBC Radio Nottingham news came in to just oversee what we were doing. And I got his contact details started emailing him back and forth. I went in to do some shadowing chefs. And I just refused to allow him to forget me. And then eventually he was like, Listen, I'm gonna give you a year long contract for freelancing, do what you want with it. Good luck. And I just never left the BBC since. I think a common misconception about my job is that it's just all fun and games. There's actually a lot of admin and a lot of like, serious meetings that go into creative ideas. I think sometimes I'll be telling my friends oh, you know, I'm working at wireless. And they'll be like, Oh my gosh, so fun. Like, can I get a plus one? And I'm like, No, it's it's a job. I'm working. I've got things to do. A tip that I have for anybody who's trying to get into radio will just be go for it. Don't wait around don't try to be perfect network network network. It's really who you know, sometimes not what you know, you will learn on the go anyway. There is no point no need to be perfect. But I wasn't perfect. And I just continued learning and that's the thing about this industry. Like it's always evolving. So just go for it. Enjoy how fun and yeah, network. That's all I have. Hi,

    Paul 3:16

    my name is Paul McLaughlin. I am 48 That's right 48 and I'm a breakfast show producer who Breakfast Show produces in the West Midlands for Free Radio across Birmingham, Coventry, Warwick share and quite most of the West Midlands, to be honest. I've worked on started off working on Mercier FM, many moons ago as a producer. Before that, you know, before that, I started off working at kicks 96 as a presenter and a bit of a runner, really. And then I've worked out how am FM on their breakfast show. And as I say, now I work on Free Radio across the West Midlands with JDM Roshi started off as a bit of a producer on that show. But now I'm more more presenting wise as well. I have more of a more of a chance to speak on the show and just do stupid things like most people do on breakfast shows so yeah. My first break came many years ago when I was just out of school really. And my brother had written off to a radio station, local radio station that I mentioned earlier kicks 96. Seen if there was any voluntary work going there on my behalf, I didn't even realise you're doing it and I got a letter through the post because in those days, we sent out letters, and they invited me down. So I just went went down there and I helped out on the drivetime show, just getting travel reports done and just helping out with various phone calls and whatnot. And from there on, I basically worked my way up to become a presenter. then, and then eventually getting a producer's job there at some point, which was quite weird. So yeah, that was my first break. So you know, a bit of voluntary work, I was also working at Bain a bar at this time, so I wasn't getting paid for it. But you know, and that's what you got to do in this day and age. Well, we, I mean, when I first started, the job has changed from when I first started, because when I started it, we CDs that are playing in little machines. And now it's all digital, press a button, load up your whole hour long music segment and fill in your little links, when your ad breaks are already in there, you just have to put carts in for ad breaks. And you still have to time things perfectly write down the, the times of each song that we're going to play out. And basically, just it's quite hands on pretty much whereas now you know, you can, it's all it's all lined up for you all the songs in your hour is all segwayed for you, and it's all in place for you switch of a button. So should something go wrong, and you know, microphone doesn't work, you can still play out the the show, whereas, you know, if you nip to the loo halfway through the early days of radio new CD stopped, then you'd be screwed. But yeah, over the next five years, is it 10 years, it's gonna be quite a bit different. I think it'll, it'll change even more, a lot of shows are becoming more networked, and remote remotely done as well. So we'd have to be in the studio anymore to just do it from wherever. So that's how I think it'll change a lot more bigger, bigger shows be networked across the country as well. One bit of advice is just, just just show eagerness and show you know, come up with ideas. No idea is a stupid idea. You can always work on one idea, if you think it's rubbish, somebody else will say can go. Actually, it's not the greatest idea, but elements of that idea are great. So never be frightened to to come up with something new and innovative or work on something that's already out there and change. It's your own own tailor in also, just you know just listen to the stuff that's going around and watch you know social media takes up Facebook, Instagram, all that sort of stuff. Have a little look at stuff that's on there, the videos on there. And it gives you great ideas for show content. And the most people are doing what other people are doing slightly different so everyone's doing it. Don't think you're nicking someone's idea unless it's a blatant Rob. But yeah, just have a listen about show eagerness. And now, you know, no idea is a bad idea.

    Jo Troy 7:47

    Thank you, Lisa and Paul for a sneak peek behind the magical bio, which is the radio world. One thing I have noticed not only with this role, but obviously in the creative field is that you can't take no for an answer. And I have to put the work in to be seen. It's a very competitive industry, and you need to go above and beyond to be seen and eager to learn on the job. Now it's time to talk to this episode's main guest or what better person to speak to and the wonderful Adele cross. A dough is an award winning producer at the BBC 20 years in the game. She's currently producer on BBC One extra Breakfast Show with Nadia J. I was lucky enough to get some time to pick her brain and talk to her about her journey experiences. Or learn about what it takes to be a radio producer. Let's go.

    Adele 8:46

    Hi, my name is Adele not the famous one. The other one with less with fewer Grammys, I at the moment at produce one extra breakfast with 90 day I've been at the BBC though for about many years. I started in 2001. So I've worked across really a foreign kind of fairs and five live and ready to and lots of news a lot. I've been very, very, very blessed. But I know that you kind of pick up bits along the way I kind of feel that life is a big one big pot of stew. You have your hot bits in your sour bits and your good bits and your bad bits but it makes what you are you know what I mean? So yeah, I've been here for a while but glad to still be here with the job.

    Jo Troy 9:28

    So okay, so what myself included? I kind of know the answer to this but I want you to confirm this. What do you do? What does it produce it there I read your show

    Adele 9:40

    and he tell you some that because you know when he's us but we're there so whenever you hear that comes out the speaker that isn't from the vocal cords of the presenter is the producer. So whether it's the script or the questions or the bed or The imaging, it doesn't mean necessarily that the producer makes it, but they are responsible for it happening.

    Jo Troy 10:06

    Okay, what would you say? Talk me through like, for example, you touched upon you were doing a breakfast show this morning? How would a show run? Like what would be the first thing you would do? And the last thing you would do to make sure a show goes out? I know it's a long process.

    Adele 10:29

    Okay. I'll take, for example, the show ID now the one extra bit of the show. So for example, we tend to work on different Ikelite timescales. So today, Friday, I've already planned the show, in terms of what music will go in the show for Monday. So that we have a content assistant, who can get a montage ready from the songs for Monday. I have also we have interviews next week, we may be getting P Diddy, pretty soon, we may be getting also we'll have the K, Washington, these big names. So we'll also prepare for these interviews in advance. So I'm thinking like a week, two weeks, three weeks in advance, at the same time, the actual show that's going out live, and they're thinking about how are we getting on network, there's nothing happened music she needs that she had the script net, she leaves for today's show, making sure that we have access to the listeners, because our show isn't very much very much listened to but read lead even as why not lead. So here's how we're going to get collate the listeners, how are we going to get the audio out? How are we going to get this stuff done? I tend to think in terms of the show, and I'm not my assistant producer to think in terms of half hour chunks to say for example, our show answers seven to 10. Say eight o'clock comes around. And I'll say to my system producer, is everything ready for the nine o'clock? Yeah, so she looking ahead, the next half hour that the music's in is complied is clean, etc. So that way, I'm looking across all kinds of the whole timescale of the whole show. So it isn't a simple answer, because as a lead producer on a series, which essentially what it is, you're thinking about today's show, you select this minute mix, well known swears, I think about the Christmas show, and the next week's show, and the birthday shows, and I'm saying so depends entirely on how with thinking. But my brain tends to work on seven to eight different timeframes at the same time. So I can kind of, I have to be able to split between what we're doing now, or what we're doing in a minute, because I was supposed to let other people know what's happening. So

    Jo Troy 12:38

    ultimately, you are creating the show from start to finish for the creation to the delivery of it. And then you insert the radio host. And so basically, you're guiding them, they do their thing, but you guide them in the direction you they need to go to execute.

    Adele 13:01

    The ultimate goal is that is that

    the sweet spot, the really sweet spot is when you have a really good relationship between the producer and presenter, because what should happen is, as a producer, you should not be able to tell which shows I've produced, you should be able to hear only the presenter. Okay. So if you have the same features showing up on different shows with different presenters, it's with the producer either has one idea, they're running out each time, and you take away from the presenter, it should be that I am like this invisible kind of ninja person puppeteer person that makes this happen. So with that said, what was Trevor, I've worked with Nigeria, I've worked with, you know, Clara, and people like that, and they're all very different. So my job is to make sure that Nadia sounds as Nigeria as nobody can be, right. So she's gonna, if you're going to check out and then lose a word and then do a dance call, I'm going to facilitate that. But you won't see me you won't see the joint. That's really how it works. So it has to be the between me and my presenter, so that we are tight. That way, I trust her to deliver the goods, she trusts me to provide her with the stuff that way we can both sit back and lean into this thing. And then be really creative because there has to be synergy and comfort user has to be comfortable being a little bit rubbish and a little bit, making mistakes, etc. So you know how far back you can go. So I know just how far back I can lean into Nadia. She knows how far back she can lean into me. And that's where we are. And that's where we start the show. And that's how we can continue.

    Jo Troy 14:37

    What would you say is the most challenging part of your job

    Adele 14:40

    is the psychology of being a producer. It is twofold. First of all, I've worked with different teams with the team and with currently is actually one of my favourites which is why get up before in the morning. If I didn't if I didn't like the team I wouldn't be here because you cannot be flipping carving sleep out your eyes at 430 Eat, and dance and t get a taxi and be mashed up for five days out of seven and not enjoy your team. It has to be that way. However, there are some places where you just don't feel comfortable if you're a producer and you go so many just don't gel. Or maybe the presenter wants something from you can't offer, or I'm not sure of who I am, is that thing of being all things to all people. So like I said before, if I'm one thing for Clara, one thing for Trevor, one thing for Nadia, but I don't know who I am as a real problem. Because I can then say, look, I can do this, that I can't do the other. And we have a relationship that works. The toughest thing as a producer, is to walk into a room and know that you have to rantings and elbows to continue to make the thing work. But there's no synergy. There's no respect, and there's no kind of ease within the team. Because then you have to front it. And then you're still you're still you know, as I always say I'm responsible for the sound of any. So when extra, I'm responsible for the sandwich between seven and 11. Done. If the king dies, please don't die, right. If the king dies or something, something happens. I'm responsible. Not looking at me, Tim Daly looking at me, Everyone's looking at me to know what to do. So I had to have my head switched. So if I'm in an area where I don't feel comfortable, or an ill at ease with the people I'm with that is the hardest, hardest thing because you got to fake it. And not all of us are good at that.

    Jo Troy 16:27

    So what made you get to this stage? Like what made you want to be on the radio and doing what you're doing today?

    Adele 16:34

    Why don't you know the producers existed when I was a little kid, why would you know, you know, I'm gonna play tracks. Why would you need someone to help? That's ridiculous. And then when I was at university, that whole thing, I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I didn't want to do. So interestingly, I spoke, I did fetch this Halloween study media studies, I did languages, right. And my essays were always late. So I was really, really good at typing mad fast. There's a point to this. So that meant that I joined this kind of this agency for kind of secretarial pa people, but because I type some quickly, I can get into these spaces. And one day, they just suggested working at radio for just just for week Adele, not for long, you know, just the media pa whatever. And I was there for a week. And the week became a month, six months, 21 years. So essentially, I really didn't know it was a thing. Until I got there. The first day I was there. And again, I was Gwen Williams PA, she's amazing. She was editor at current affairs. I'll do pa stuff. I'm like, Yeah, call his meeting, whatever, whatever, right. And then at one point, they asked me to start writing scripts, and that means to kind of type stuff up. Now, other people will notice this, there's a whole department in radio four, actually had five live for the BBC, called the obituary department. But they do the obits. So my goal now asked me by the way, this is about I don't know 15 to 18 years ago, I started writing scripts and writing them up. And once said, Margaret Thatcher hit dice. Our Osnap I didn't know she died. I thought I'm really quite dull. I should not be in this department. It took me about three months to realise that she hadn't died. It was just an obituary for when she does find and believe there is burpee it I didn't know that he died in a Brock Obama died. They didn't die, though. This is the whole department that we're talking about. Right. So I kind of learned on the way what there is, you understand how the obits I don't know thing. All I knew was, I'm here for a week, I'll do what I can. But I think because I didn't get the training in terms of media studies, I had been the kind of person to open my eyes wide, and learn. So I had to learn I have to learn. So I kind of fell into it. And I knew that I my first story was 911, which is massive. So that's really new space and do financial programmes are really a for that money box and in business in that, and I was grateful. I'm in a place where people are so intelligent and so kind, so generous, that you know what, inside of me, I really knew I needed to have something young and to do with music. So I eventually got my way out of news into live programming. Did Radio One, one extra radio two, and he had to kind of feel your way to find your way.

    Jo Troy 19:27

    What's the difference between the two? For you, personally? What was between between the more journalistic stuff you were doing before? To the music side of things?

    Adele 19:37

    It depends on what feeds you, man. It's what feeds you. I am grateful to God and all above. For the training I got on the news team, though, because it's second to none. It is absolutely second to none. There's no There's no question. There's a journalistic nows that like you could smell a story. You can tell them that doesn't add up or you can kind of feel it in your bones when I'm watching these guys now. As some of them I know, I've worked with Newspeak, who in Ukraine or in Israel, anything. Yo, you guys are really in the thick of it. Yeah. I know that they can they can they know in their bones of what makes a story and they want to find the truth. However, I knew I wasn't a journalist, because that time that will not stuck in the terms or something, remember? Yeah. I thought I went out for lunch came back. And someone could Maddie service was a journalist ran down the stairs to meet Adele, Adele, what she does, I get to go report on the whale now. And I thought push for you, I'm gonna eat my sandwich because it doesn't interest me at all. And that's what I realised. I'm not this is not for me. However, what marine artists and being in the thick of something that's news, for example, I'm not from there to Radio One. And I was on razzes, press climate show. And he used to do a show about planning British talent. And here's how everything ties together this big ol stew I'm talking about when John Hill passed away, Rasul COVID, one of his slots and looking for new talent. And I had worked on a documentary or a series on radio to write. And I said to him, do you know what then this gets this girl? She sounds really cool. You have met her her music record, we should go in for a session and made a phone call. What was it? I was like, Yes, this girl called Amy Winehouse, I'll see if I can contact her. When you're I call you. So then anyone house then comes. And it was the second album, her last one, as she's doing the bits, and it's made a veil. And it's these talented musicians. And I am surrounded in the thick of in the middle of someone creating sound. And I got the tingles all over me the same way. Maddie did looking for that nonsense whale. And that's what I knew. You have to go where you're fed, right? Yeah. So that's how I know the difference is like it's spotting a musical talent as opposed to spotting an excellent story. You either have it or you don't you can smell it or you can't?

    Jo Troy 22:15

    Where do you see radio production going in the next five to 10 years? Do you see your job changing? If only you could see your face back now. Take your time, it's okay.

    Adele 22:32

    I would like to say that the art of being a radio producer. That's to say, so you know when you get very techie now, but when you edit a conversation, for example, at arms out and the best out and you make a sound sick, I'm wondering to myself, if the art and the craft of that very delicate process will go because we're moving towards a far more relaxed, long form version of audio. So podcasts for example, there is not as much of a need to take out the ANDs and ORs and because you have time to chat about whatever and just take a breath and then do a thing. And then both if you want it, it's final standard podcast. The other audio I'm talking about is so precise and so delicate that I just don't know, I know that people who are the radio for kind of times radio, which is basically for older generation of craftsmen and women will maintain it. And there are so it's like the skewer or media for again, it's a comedy show, but it's won multiple awards, because the delicacy in the audio is so intricate. And so it just grabs your imagination. And it's so it's almost like a It's not like a scientist has taken the audio and meld it together and made something beautiful. And I just don't know whether that will still be around or needed or required in the next 1020 years. I think it will be literally you have cars podcasts which bang by the way, don't get me wrong. Banks basically be the conversational kind of relaxed stuff. I think, no yado played this in 10 years and then told me that you know, I mean, come for me. I'm just saying

    Jo Troy 24:25

    in terms of technology wise, do you see it changing as well just in terms of making your job easier, or maybe harder?

    Speaker 4 24:33

    It's always going to change your technology will always always always always progress always constantly. Even the students we're in now are always outdated. I spent about five to 10 years I think so yeah technology Absolutely.

    Jo Troy 24:44

    What is the trajectory like to get to I know your your route was very unconventional, but what is the conventional route into where you are now? Like, where would you stop?

    Adele 24:57

    That's a good question. What is the conventional route? Friends, what is conventional?

    Jo Troy 25:02

    Well, I would, I would assume, you know, you go to uni Media Studies at and obviously, I'm skipping a lot of in betweens here. But you know, you will become a system producer, do the hard yards, and then hopefully get your opportunity. But if there's another route in, please let me

    Adele 25:19

    know, traditionally yes uni, study English or politics and then you go to do Masters in Journalism and then you bang, you're there I can speak on the behalf of the BBC, there's now a concerted effort to break through that, because you're gonna get a certain type of person. And because the BBC is at pains to make sure that the represent everyone that listens to us, when I'll go to university, and then get to do that. So the traditional route was, as I said, the non traditional route, I think we're still discovering, to be honest, if you're looking for talent, is now going to the community radio stations, it's now going listening to podcasts, it's now going to the places that don't even need us or want us and seeking them out. So it's literally making content for yourself. It could even be a YouTube thing could be a Spotify thing, it could be anything. So it's really quite fast. Now, the only thing now, they really want to see is that you have talent, and you want to work

    Jo Troy 26:22

    simple. Before we go, I've got one more question. And I always end on this note. Is there one tip you would give to aspiring producers or resources that they could use?

    Adele 26:33

    I am all about the whole person. Yes. So my tips are going to be about who you are. Yeah, work out who you are. And once you know it, don't apologise for it. Because some of us don't fit in anywhere. And because we don't fit in anywhere, we can fit in anywhere, you know, saying, but it took me a long time to work that out, you know, and then once you get it, then you know, you can then have the confidence to say, this is what I bring to the table. This is where I'm excellent. If you feel this not for you, I shall move on with respect. But you have to get to the point where you know who you are. You know me you know your voice. You know what you do? Even fact the way I got in was, as you say, unconventional. But I still really hide from it. I wouldn't say anything. Now I'm 20 years income come from me, then. Come come. Come see your horse and talk to me about stuff. It's all right. But you have to get to that point. You know what I mean? And it takes a long time. I'm sure you know, to find your voice and find out who in the world am I in this crazy world?

    Jo Troy 27:36

    I love that they do that though. I would just say thank you for joining me today. I learned a lot. We didn't get a lot of time to speak. I wish we could have spoke for longer. But yeah, thank you for taking time out today.

    Unknown Speaker 27:49

    Me Have a lovely day. All right.

    Jo Troy 27:53

    So what did I take away today's conversation, do what you love and don't settle for second best. As cliche as it sounds, I think this is very true in his line of work. Most creative jobs can be laborious, and if you don't enjoy what you do, will reflect on your work. Raise your production, it's definitely no different. You have to be on top of everything. And I mean, if any slip of concentration or oversights were 100% come back to haunt. Keep an eye on new formats and trends within the space. With the rise of podcasting, the world of radio is ever evolving. longer form content is definitely something that is on the rise. Keep up to date with the movers and shakers and how your existing skills can develop unconsciously. Finally, learn what you are good at and who you are. Competence is essential. Not only for being able to do your job but to take knockbacks if you are unapologetically yourself, you will not have any what if questions in your head. You know what you bring to the table and offer and won't waste time trying to be somebody you win

    Thank you Lisa Paul, and of course a wonderful Adele for taking time out to educate and inspire amazingly talented people for sure. Make sure to check them out in the links in the description. And here we are, again. The end of another adventure. Make sure you're following the podcast. Don't miss an episode. And until next time. Bye bye

  • 00:00

    Hello Voices, my name is Joe Troy and I'm a multi award winning voice over and host of a voice overs audio adventure podcast. A bi-weekly show where I learn about the voice over and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    00:25

    With voice actor, one of the biggest problems I can admittedly say is that you never do quite feel like enough is enough. You're always looking to the next job and wondering will I ever get booked again? I guess that's the feeling over most creative fields but the question is, can you overcome it? What's the best way to get support if you have questions or concerns and how can we own the title of freelancing?

    00:55

    It's about freelancing. Now you may be thinking, Joe, this isn't an audio topic. So why are you talking about it? Well, it might not directly be related to the industry, but I wanted to get some insight scooping advice on the freelancer world, because that's what we all are, right? Freelancers. I never ever thought I would be a freelancer until I was thrown into this world in 2020. And it was definitely a-

    01:25

    deep learning curve. Not only on what I should and shouldn't be doing, but who to ask if I have questions, network and most importantly, how to get work. On top of that, how do I sort out my finances and make sure everything is above board? Today, I had the pleasure of speaking with two individuals who I have met in person and virtually and have gained a lot of knowledge from.

    01:52

    First of all, I'd like to introduce Benji Potter, aka the LinkedIn Whisperer. He works a lot in the world of LinkedIn, where, let's be honest, most freelancers gain a large chunk of their network and work. Benji spent a decade working as a showbiz journalist, interviewing the likes of Beyonce, Sir Rod Stewart and Sir Elton John before pivoting in creator partnerships at TechGiantMeta.

    02:20

    Helpful reels and coaches clients to fulfill their career goals on LinkedIn. Let's hear what tips and thoughts he has to offer.

    02:31

    Hi, my name's Benji Potter and I'm the LinkedIn Whisperer. I help freelancers show up on LinkedIn, grow their businesses and get more leads and create buzz. So some of the common questions that I get from freelancers are how do I show up on LinkedIn without being cringe? What the heck do I write about? And how do I show up without showing off?

    03:00

    So first of all, the cringe question, which is the question that I hear so much, people really feeling like now is the time they want to show up on LinkedIn, but they just don't want to be cringy or embarrassing or share kind of exciting news. And I would basically direct them back to one word, and that one word is value. So what value are you providing in your post? So once you've written your post, you've come up with an idea.

    03:30

    ask yourself where's the value for the audience because providing value for free on LinkedIn is what is gonna build the trust with prospective employers. What do I write about? That's another one, right? We see other people's engaging content, see all their likes and comments and we think what do we write about? Well, there's a few places you can start. You can start by doing something called allow me to introduce myself where you kind of do a potted history of who you are and.

    03:59

    you know, show people the twists and turns of your career. And I guess the value in that is showing that you can have an unconventional path to end up where you are. There's other stuff like you might have done a new piece of training or you might have learned a new fact about your industry that you want to share. I found this was a really common problem. So a few months ago, I created something called 30 Days of LinkedIn Prompts. And this was ideas for 30 days worth of posts.

    04:28

    So if you find me on Instagram, LinkedIn, underscore, whisper or on LinkedIn, Benjyp, B-E-N-J-Y-P, then I'm happy to share that free document with you. And you can see content from people that have done that free course. And finally, how do I not show off on LinkedIn? I think again, that's about that value piece. You might have done something incredible or worked with an amazing brand, and that's totally fine to share.

    04:57

    I guess my challenge to you would be where's the value piece in that other than just showing off.

    05:06

    So how to grow your business? Well, it's about connecting with people, past, present, and future employers and colleagues, and also about commenting on other people's conversations. So not just posting yourself, creating networks by commenting, and just being authentic and true to you, not feeling like you have to show up as some kind of squeaky clean professional little work robot.

    05:35

    So one tip I would give to new and existing freelancers is just to start. Just start posting, see what works and you'll soon get an idea of the kind of thing your audience wants to hear. LinkedIn at the moment is a bit of an untapped resource for the entertainment industry in particular. So the sooner you show up, the more chance that you'll get more eyeballs on your posts and you're really.

    06:04

    be seen as an expert in your field. So I'd say to get the most out of LinkedIn, I would try to aim to post once a week or once a month, just keep your cadence kind of regular. If you don't feel like posting, then comment, but don't see it as like an advertising billboard. You'll want to have a link to your voice reel on LinkedIn somewhere on your profile, but

    06:34

    First and foremost, you'll be getting people's attention by the kind of experience you've had, the opinions you have, the things you've learned, the way you're upskilling.

    06:46

    And yeah, just to remind you that you can find me on Instagram, LinkedIn underscore whisper or on LinkedIn, B E N J Y P. Lots of tips and tricks and a couple of harsh truths about LinkedIn. Yeah. Thank you, Benji. Next up, I got to have an in-depth convo with the amazing Sophie Cross.

    07:08

    She's an editor and publisher of Freelancer magazine, a quarterly, 100 page glossy print business magazine for creative and B2B freelancers. So if we launch Freelancer magazine via a wildly successful Kickstarter campaign, which hit 150% of its goal and sold 1000 copies of the magazine before the magazine even existed, it now has a rapidly growing community of B2B and creative freelancers and readers in over 25 countries.

    07:37

    Sophie is a big believer in community, always trying to connect people to one another within the freelance industry, as well as inspiring freelancers to make their own things to scale their businesses. I wanted to ask her about her journey, common questions and problems freelancers face, and more about freelancer mag and how you could use it as a resource. Let's go.

    08:07

    So I'm the editor and publisher of Freelancer magazine. Yeah. Issue 11 coming out. It's a quarterly business magazine for the freelance community, largely for B2B and creative freelancers. I've been freelancing myself for 10 years, a bit over 10 years. So my background's mainly in marketing. So I was working for the travel and hospitality industry and still kind of doing a little bit and thinking about getting back into having a finger in that pie.

    08:34

    So yeah, freelancing myself in marketing, but my main gig is Freelancer Magazine, which is print first, it's digital too, but we also have like online courses for freelancers and yeah, just building a community really. It's like not an official membership, but people get connected by getting the magazine and by getting involved in the courses. And yeah, it's cool. So how did you get here? Like what made you start the magazine? So, yeah.

    09:04

    Classic pandemic story. So had a fairly successful freelancing business, quite a lot of decent clients in the travel and hospitality space was working for people like lastminute.com, was actually living really rurally in Somerset for five years and wanted to get back to London, itchy feet to kind of like do more in real life stuff, kind of move and shake in hospitality industry a bit more after kind of feeling a bit semi-retired.

    09:34

    but having quite a lovely time. Just kind of working for clients from the countryside. Moved back to London in the February, the pandemic hit, well, the pandemic hit March, I suppose, and then I'd like lost all of my clients overnight. So I was kind of twiddling my thumbs. Had been interested for a long time in, well, I had always wanted my own business, and obviously freelancing is your own business, and it's one of the main things I kind of bang the drum for is like, see your...

    10:02

    freelancing as a business and it also helps you like create that separation. But, you know, had always wanted a kind of wanted a product. Certainly had been interested a bit more in how to productize. You know, we kind of talk a lot about, you know, if you're just selling a service, it's like your time is one for one. So had already kind of been thinking about like, if it was possible to productize in some ways, so it looked at making online courses and started doing that.

    10:30

    targeting freelancers really in small businesses, so like marketing courses. And it was like going, it wasn't going well in the fact that I wasn't making a ton of money, but it was just going well in the, I did it. And, you know, it was just so scary to kind of like make videos and put yourself out there. And people, you know, actually people were buying them, a few people and, you know, giving good feedback. And that was like just enough for me to like think, okay, I'm gonna give this a shot. And

    10:59

    I wanted to create content to kind of put myself out there as an expert in the freelance space. And I was thinking about how to do that. And like podcasting isn't really like my natural, like I'm more of a kind of written, my skills like lie more in that. And kind of already had a newsletter, just thought like a blog is just a bit too, you know, 2005. And all of a sudden I kind of had that, that, that light bulb moment that was like, sorry, my alarm's going off for this.

    11:28

    know, there isn't a freelancer magazine. And actually, the way to catch people's attention would be to post it through the Xboxes. And they can't avoid it. Yes, I came up with a different magazine, but I have been making pre pandemic a magazine for a hotel group. So kind of like a brochure slash magazine that was going in there, all the London hotels. So I called the designer.

    11:55

    who we'd like, we'd never met in person, but we'd become quite good friends working on that. So I called her like a day after I had the idea and was like, would you design this magazine with me? Yeah. And Lyons who's awesome. She said yes. And she said yes. And yeah, we've been making it ever since started by a Kickstarter, like just over two and a half years ago, I think. So January, years are so confusing, aren't they? I know. January 2021.

    12:24

    Okay. So, you know, you've been on this journey since you started it. How do you think it's helped you as a freelancer and what have you learned from it? Yeah, it's amazing because basically we're sharing stories of people, you know, we've, I've always said, I wanted it to be inspirational without being overly aspirational, so we are, you know, we're not looking for people that are, you know.

    12:52

    Six figures, not to say there's anything wrong with that, but like, you know, we're not just trying to go out there and saying like, everyone's got to be earning six figures. You've got to be working from Bali or Mexico City. You know, we try to certainly have people that are inspirational and doing amazing things and that you can learn from, but actually that, you know, it's realistic. And we do have, yeah, it feels very real, I think. And yeah, it's just all about people sharing those stories and like the mistakes they've made. And...

    13:20

    how they want clients and how they market themselves. So I get to absorb like all of that, which is very, very cool. And I guess also it's the first time that I've been a client. So for the magazine, we now have a team of, I'm not sure how many people, like maybe 10 or 15 freelancers, writers, proofreader, designer. Yeah. So I then also get to see it from the perspective of like the client and trying to be a good client, but also the perspective of what a client wants. So.

    13:49

    I think I've learned a lot about freelancing in that way and kind of, yeah, setting boundaries and yeah, what, what, you know, just looking at it from like different perspectives, which is always helpful. And you know, you, you touched upon creating like a community with what you're doing with the magazine. What's common questions or problems are you finding that freelancers are facing?

    14:19

    I mean, I think it's a tough time, like it's tough time for everyone, right? But I think it's a tough time for particularly for freelancers at the moment. Like, like if you have an, like an unstable income, the roller coaster, like the roller coaster is always tricky. But then when you also add like general unstable economic times and, and cost of living crisis on top of that, like, I think, honestly, I think the sentiment is that most people are finding it tough right now.

    14:48

    And I think, you know, it's really important to kind of have some short-term, but also some long-term strategies to, to relationship build and to, you know, to, to market yourself and put yourself out there. And that, you know, I think a lot of the things that freelancers, because we're so personally attached to our businesses, we feel like, you know, shouting about ourselves or selling or marketing is like bragging, or it's like.

    15:15

    just difficult or awkward. And I think it's just being able to get over that. And like I said, I think the most important thing is to kind of see yourself as a business and try and create a bit of separation, but also to realize that putting yourself out there and like marketing yourself is not like gross. It's like, you have to do it. If you believe in, you know, you have to back yourself and you can do it in a way like of being helpful. And I think if you are helpful, like it never, it doesn't feel weird.

    15:44

    You know, you're not kind of shouting about yourself. You're shouting about how you can help people and give people tips and things like that. And I just think, yeah, my main advice would be try and create some separation. Like see yourself as a business. Do your do a cash flow. You know, I think it's scary. Like I have it myself as well. Like sometimes it's scary to.

    16:03

    face the figures and face the facts and we can bury our heads in the sand a little bit and we don't want to set goals. But actually it gives you a bigger sense of control if you do do these things and you do kind of work out, okay, well, this is, this is what my personal costs are, these are what my business costs are, this is what I need to earn like, you know, X amount of them, you know, months next year and yeah, can you just give you a bit more confidence? I think that if you do have a quiet month, so actually maybe.

    16:31

    You know, over a few years you see that May is always quiet for you, but August is generally busier or something. So I think take control as much as you can. Do you have any tips for marketing? Just one tip. I know you've got a lot of courses on this, so I know I've ruined it for people, but is there like a little tidbit you could give to someone to say, if you do this, this will help and so on and so forth? Honestly, I think that LinkedIn is like the best place to be right now. Yeah.

    17:01

    you know, the organic reach of posts is still really good. And I don't think it will be like that forever because inevitably they will go down more of a paid route. But I think if you can get used to kind of like regularly posting on there, engaging with other people, commenting with other people, just being real on there, actually the connections that you make and the opportunities that can come of it, like certainly I started using it really intentionally about two and a half years ago and I still have phases where I drop off and like.

    17:29

    know, because you are personally attached to it, it is difficult to show up every day and go, oh god, I really want to feel like posting something today. But yeah, LinkedIn would be my tip. You know, it's where people are looking to do business. It's where the budgets are. And I would just say, just get on board now because, you know, it is still good. And actually, if you haven't used it for ages and you think it's still, it's kind of full of people, humble bragging, like it's not really like that anymore. And actually you can choose your own.

    17:58

    community, you can choose your own connections, unfollow people if they make you feel gross and yeah, put yourself out there. What's the visibility like on LinkedIn? Like, are you actually being seen by people or is it kind of like Instagram with the algorithms where it's literally your circles like 30 people? No, it's like good. At the moment it's good. And they change things and the algorithms change for sure. And like they've made an update recently where...

    18:27

    They're trying to push people to premium. So like there didn't seem much difference before. I don't think between like premium and non-premium, but now you can only send 10 DMs. I don't know if it's a week or a month, but to be honest, I don't use it like that. Like I don't use it so much to like, I think that's the people you're not connected with. So they're trying to push you onto premium so that you can do that. You can have like, you know, a hundred or an unlimited. I mean, I don't really use it like that. I use it as.

    18:57

    Like more to comment and to more to post and put stuff out there. Yeah, and I think the impressions are really, really good. And yeah, like that would be my number one tip. LinkedIn plus newsletter. Newsletter is interesting you brought that up. I see you championing newsletters a lot on LinkedIn especially. Why, where did that come from? And how does it help a freelancer in getting business and being seen? So I think

    19:27

    The ideal thing is that you own your audience. Like, so basically if you, if you are on LinkedIn and you don't start capturing people's data somewhere else, if you don't stay to people, okay. So I think the ideal thing is right, that you, you put something out there and you say, uh, you know, you're targeting your ideal client and you're giving them us some helpful tips and you're putting that on LinkedIn on a post and then you're saying at the bottom of that post.

    19:55

    Like for more like this, sign up to my newsletter. And then you're getting those people to sign up to a newsletter because inevitably one day the algorithm on LinkedIn will change and they own, you know, they can do whatever they want. They can suddenly say, we're not going to make you appear anymore in front of people, you're going to have to pay for that. But if you've started to capture people on your, on a newsletter database, you know, that's yours essentially. That's you own that as much as you can own anyone's data. So I think.

    20:25

    know, from from freelancing for 10 years, from setting up the magazine, like from trying lots and lots and lots of things, and you know, still trying to get better at everything. That is the ideal for me, like is like, find a way to grow your database, which is probably going to be through social, you know, it might not be LinkedIn, you might, you know, Instagram might work really well for you, especially if you have visual things, but

    20:53

    It might be paid if that can work well for you, but these are all adding like little different layers of complexity. And actually, you know, because things aren't really that visual, you know, if there aren't that many, there's tons and tons of copyrights on LinkedIn. And, but if you can do something a little bit different and also, God, you know, if you, even if your database is only 50 people, you know, you only go to that or a hundred people, but it's really, really targeted, like you've got your dream target clients on there.

    21:21

    like better that than having like some generic database of thousands of people. So yeah, I would just have a real, you know, I would have a think about who your dream clients are, what is the most helpful information you can give them, like what email could you send them that they wouldn't be able to not open and you know, you can start reusing your social content for your newsletter, you can start reusing your newsletter content for your social.

    21:47

    You know, you can start saying in your newsletter, make sure you follow me on LinkedIn. You can definitely put me on the bottom of all your LinkedIn posts. Make sure you sign up to my newsletter. And, you know, it's just, again, it's another way of like being able to take a little bit more control over your own marketing. Do you see any new resources or any apps or websites that you see coming up at the moment that you think will be important in the next, say,

    22:16

    two, three, four years. It's all AI, isn't it? And I'm trying to avoid it as much as possible. I'm burying my head in the sand about it, to be honest. Yeah, do you know what? Everyone talks about AI, like you said, and I tried to ignore it for a while, but you can't. And I feel like I'm starting to embrace it now. More so with the business side, not the performative side on my part, but the business side.

    22:45

    organizing myself and get myself sorted that way. Because we've always been using it. It's just that now it's the word that everyone's speaking about. So, yeah, how do you feel about that? Yeah. Yeah, there's some things that you say that we've already been using and we love about it, right? Like I love Spotify serving me songs with my playlist ends, but, you know, and all of that. And I think it's just like our...

    23:11

    a lot of our audience are copywriters, like I come from a copywriting background. So a lot of the chat around AI is like, will we need copywriters anymore? And I suppose I feel like, yeah, they do, it does do a really good job from a writing perspective, but actually just kind of when we've moved out of this, we're trying to move out of this era of getting businesses to like, not talk like robots and not be super formal. And then it's almost like driving us back into that a little bit. But yeah, I totally agree with you. Like I think

    23:42

    automation, the point I'm trying to get to in my business is as much automation as possible, as much productization as possible. So I think, yeah, looking at ways that you can automate things and AI is that is AI basically. So I think, yeah, my advice would be don't do what I'm doing, which I don't for a lot of things like I am trying to automate, but don't bury your head in the sand about it.

    24:11

    can help you then like try and get your head around them. Cause I think it's, that's the thing, isn't it? Like we kind of shy away from spending half a day learning something. Because you know, it's half a day, but actually that's going to save us five minutes a day or, you know, 10 minutes a day for the rest of our lives. Like we should really embrace that. And actually you've got to keep up because there's always going to be the next thing. So if you're not keeping up with this thing, like it's just going to run away from you.

    24:41

    So I think, yeah, it's always, always going to change, but you've got to try and keep up a bit wise. One day you're going to be like, yeah, I don't know what's going on. Yeah. Before I let you go, obviously you're doing amazing work in the magazine. Could you tell the listeners more about what kind of courses you have running? Some people out there who might have a lot of questions, they might be able to find answers in your magazine. So yeah, just tell us a bit more about that.

    25:09

    Yeah, for sure. So the magazine is like focused around business and lifestyle for freelancers, really. But like there is a lot about running your business, winning clients, marketing yourself, and the courses are all so the courses are called under like Freelancer Magazine Marketing School. And I write all the courses myself. They're all video and text based as tasks. They're a bit of fun. They've got a playlist just for like, just to make it lighthearted and a bit more memorable. And they get really, really good.

    25:39

    reviews, like not much to my surprise, but you know I'm just really honest with what I think works and what I think is most helpful and I'm a bit, and it's like a bit of a kick up the arse in some respects. So I just released a new course called Braille Your Own Newsletter, so yeah it's just like, it's not just do it, but there is a bit of just do it in there, but you know it's helpful in terms of like taking you through the steps. So there's one, my flagship course I guess, the most popular is LinkedIn for Humans.

    26:07

    Then there's grow your own newsletter. And then there's a couple of mini ones, um, like about content creation and nailing your offering. Yeah. And more coming next year. So I'm going to release a course, I think April time called, it's going to be about making your first course. So whatever that is going to be about, but so you can start to like productize your business and just kind of all of the learnings that I've had in making courses and selling courses and finally making.

    26:35

    some alright money, some courses over the last three years. Hopefully help people do that a bit quicker than it took me. Nice. Well, that sounds amazing. I'll put all the links down below so people can check it out for sure. But yeah, thank you for your time today. Definitely. Thanks so much for having me. Sparks my interest in looking into LinkedIn again. Do use it. But I'm definitely going to check out some things that I'm missing. So thanks for that. Yeah, thank you for your time. Yeah, hopefully.

    27:04

    Speak again soon. Yeah, see you on next time. Bye. See ya.

    27:12

    So what did I take away from today's conversation? Be a real person, join networks, use professional platforms like LinkedIn, use them intentionally and not just to keep up appearances. Some of us may feel slightly anxious when reaching out to people and even may be feeling extra pressure watching our peers' accomplishments, but you can pick and choose what you see and interact with. Remember, you are in control.

    27:41

    own your audience, utilize your contacts, don't rely on one place to get your work so if you can gather people's data for the future, do it. Everything is controlled by algorithms these days so don't just be on autopilot and riding the wave, be ahead of it and not reliant on it.

    28:01

    Newsletters are a great way to collect data if you have content that you feel you can offer to others. But if that's not for you, simple CRM will do. What is a CRM you may ask? Well, you could Google it or you can wait up for an upcoming episode where we will cover it. And lastly, keep up to date with the ever-changing world of technology and the way your industry works.

    28:28

    Stay in the loop and don't get left behind. Once you fall behind, it will be very hard to catch up. All of these takeaways are interlinked in a way and all center themselves around being proactive, organized and educated. Easy, right? I wish.

    28:47

    Thank you Benji and Sophie for joining me on today's adventure. This is a very complex topic and of course can't be answered in 30 minutes, but I hope this has raised some alarm bells or given you a nudge in the right direction to ask any questions or concerns you may have. We're done for another week. Make sure you're following the podcast, don't miss an episode, and until next time everyone, bye-bye.

  • 00:03

    Hello Voices, my name is Joe Troy and I'm a multi award winning voice over and host of a voice overs audio adventure podcast. A bi-weekly show where I learn about the voice over and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    00:26

    Welcome to another adventure. This week I'll be delving into one of the most sought after niches in the voiceover world. Most want to be part of it, but either don't know how to, or think it's out of their reach. Today is the first of many episodes about this niche. I will be speaking with experts to give you the best opportunity possible at achieving your goals and get rid of any doubts or questions you may have.

    00:54

    Today's adventure is about animation, and more specifically, voice acting in animation. Voice acting in the animation world is a very hard niche to get into. In my experience and speaking with people I know, these roles are usually reserved for classically trained actors or people who live, breathe and dedicate themselves to the craft. What I mean by that is you are good and you excel at creating characters. Not just funny voices.

    01:22

    but having distinguishable characteristics between different roles you may be playing. I have had the pleasure of voice acting in several animation projects, the standout one being my role in Hammer and Bolter which is an animated series based on the Warhammer games. It definitely was a special job, I got the audition for my agent and the rest is history. As you know there are no two jobs that are the same, so today I'm going to

    01:51

    I'll be getting the thoughts and advice from two amazing voice actors who have been doing this for decades. First off, let's hear from Kate Harbour. Her voice acting has appeared in shows such as Bob the Builder, Chicken Run Dawn of the Nugget and Shaun the Sheep to name a few. Looking forward to hear some gems and hear what she has to say.

    02:17

    Hi, I'm Kate Harbour and I'm an actor. I've performed in many things, but my niche, I suppose, is animated characters from Bob the Builder, Octonauts to Sean the Sheep and Chicken Run, Dawn of the Nugget. Out now, go and see it, it's great. I also do a lot of radio dramas and comedies from Doctor Who to Robin of Sherwood, The Big Ben Theory and The Roy Hoodlines. I'm also the English dub for several Netflix shows from

    02:46

    Super Monsters to Go Go Cory Carson. Well, I suppose I started, I fell in love with the Muppets, you see. And, well, that's where it all started. Right, so a misconception. It's just a silly voice, isn't it? No. And if you, the actor, think that it's just a silly voice, it will definitely sound it. If you're just reading the words or phoning it in, to use an old turns phrase, you're not acting.

    03:14

    I mean, it's our job really to find engaging ways to give a truthful account of that character's story. And I think we do that by tapping into our own unique life experience, our own little quirks, you know, our voice box and well, hey, our spirit, right? To make that character come alive. So, soapbox time. AI can't replicate that wonderful uniqueness. Oh no. You can hear it, can't you? When someone's not being genuine or the real deal, you know.

    03:44

    being human. Okay, hardest thing about what you do. Constant self promotion and marketing, especially keeping up with the algorithms on social and you know how to navigate all of that. Basically all the stuff that's not actually requiring what I do best, which I mean I'd much rather leave all that to the experts. But you know, needs must. Actually I'm incredibly thankful that I did gen up on all of that as when lockdown hit I was

    04:14

    able to work from my studio at home. It's a major stroke of luck as I had just landed Octonauts and the third series of Messy Goes to Okie Doe, which I absolutely loved working on. One tip you would give it, that's a bit mean, aspiring actors. Okay, well I might give you a few if you don't mind. Get versatile. Keep mimicking your family, your neighbours, your frenemies. Just keep expanding your library of characters. Find the joy in it.

    04:43

    and be a team player actually. There's nothing wrong with an ego. We've all got one, but just my suggestion is that just leave it at the door. Yes. What's the other one? Dare to fail. Don't fail to dare. There you go. That's a good one, isn't it? Life's too short, for goodness sake. So just step into your power. And so this is the self-promotion bit.

    05:11

    If you'd like to explore this area of work with me a bit more, then come and work with me on my Acting for Animation courses, which I offer. No, I really, I absolutely love it when everyone brings their unique human and animal and object choices. It's brilliant. We have such a fun time. So yeah, if you're up for that, I've got some more coming up in February, I believe. Anyway, that's it. That's me. Over and out.

    05:43

    Thank you, Kate. How dare you add more than one tip? Thanks for the amazing nuggets of knowledge. To be honest, it all sounds so easy, right? Okay, hopefully you've got the gist of what it takes to develop, get your first job, or maybe more. I think it's time to speak with my next guest, Julie Ann Dean, a versatile voice actor with 29 years in the industry and featured in over 40 children's series and films.

    06:12

    including the UK's version of Max and Ruby, Baby Ricky and Paw Patrol to name a few. I wanted to ask her how she got her break, how she creates characters, how to get in front of casting directors and more.

    06:35

    Hello, I'm Julianne and I'm a voice actor. I've been doing this for 29 years. It started when I was 16. I wanted to say two then, but that's okay. I started when I was 16 and in a children's show and then I've been working on children's animations mainly for the last 29 years, yeah. And I blink and love it. I really do, I really do. So.

    07:05

    How did you get to where you are today? Like what made you go into the world of animation? Did you choose it or did it choose you? It chose me. I, well, I knew I wanted to be an actress and my dad was in the army. So we lived in Germany and it meant that a lot of avenues for becoming the next Judy Dench were limited. So we had like one TV channel.

    07:35

    and there was one local theater within the barracks. So I used to just write when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, I used to write to TV shows in the UK and stuff like that. Can I be in you? Can I go? No, you live in Germany and you're like 12. Leave us alone. But when I moved to the UK, it was just like, ah, wow! And so I spent my evenings after school.

    08:03

    I would write to casting directors and I would, I'd phone them. Hi, it's me, I've arrived. Anyway, lots of them were very polite and but one of them said, well, try and get more feathers to your bow. And I thought, well, I can sing, I can sing. Even though I'm pretty average, but I'm okay at singing. So I thought, right, I'll go and get a singing demo done. So I went to the local recording studio in Gloucester where I lived.

    08:33

    And they had posters for animations. And I was like, why you got that there? And they said, well, we do the voices for them. And I was like, what, what? It wasn't something that had ever popped into my head. And so I was 15 then, and I said, can I have a go? And they said, yes. And so they let me play about behind the microphone. And they said, well, actually, we've got a...

    09:03

    a BBC children's show that we need to dub from German to English. Do you want to audition for it? And I was like, yeah. So I got, I auditioned and I got the part of the main girl in, in, in this show called the little vampire, which was for BBC. Okay. So that's how it all started. And so it's not a very conventional route if there is a conventional route into it. Yeah, true. Yeah. So it makes it difficult.

    09:31

    to offer advice to people starting out now. But I think I know, I mean, that doesn't mean to say I can't help at all. Yeah. What do you think are the biggest misconceptions about what you do as a, as a, I'm working on animations? What do you think? That it's easy. Anyone could do it. They're all true. No, no, no.

    09:59

    No, I've always, I'm always surprised. I always think everyone can do it and then I'll get somebody in here or whatever and I go, no, just do this. No. But I've gradually gotten better at directing. I used to be a terrible director. I'd just do that parrot thing. No, just do it like this. Hi, how are you? They'd be like, what? So now I'm, what would I say? I'd say the...

    10:26

    biggest misconception is that it's all just about the voices. It's not just about the voices at all. Um, and so I'll often get people saying to me, I can do silly voices and I'm always getting told I could do. And honestly, that's a massive bonus. It is. I mean, it really is, but it's not the main thing. The main thing is learning to act. So if you want to get into animation, you really need to know about acting.

    10:56

    because there needs to be truthfulness in it. Kids are not stupid. They really aren't. And especially these days, with everything that's out there, they're not gonna buy it if somebody's just not believing their words. So that is the biggest misconception about working in animation. Do you feel like you need to be able to do different types of voices slash characters to be able to be successful? No.

    11:25

    No, you don't. One of my things is that I'm quite versatile, but you do not need to. Because I think now, especially, people are looking for authenticity. And so they will make that extra effort to get somebody who's authentically that accent or from that background.

    11:54

    And so that means they will get the main roles and things, which is really good. But it is very useful because if you get that main part, then they might go, oh, there's three little boys over there. Can you just do the voices of those three little boys? And it's really handy to have those. But you definitely can. I mean, lots of celebrities do it. They just have their voice on things. Yeah, so there is an opportunity, I'd say, but I do think it is

    12:24

    worth working on other characters. How do you work on other characters? It's something that you need to practice. You need to become comfortable with being seen as slightly crazy. Because you'll be watching somebody or listening to somebody. Well, Radio 4, if I hear somebody on Radio 4, I'm always surprised at how...

    12:52

    extreme some people's voices are. And you think, oh no, that's really over the top. But with animation, you can't be too over the top most of the time, unless it's a particular type of animation. So I'll take a quality from somebody's voice. And then, but like I said, the main thing is the character and you get the character and the acting from this script. And if it's not there, you make it up. And so then you've got the voice and then you've got the...

    13:21

    character and then you try. No, that doesn't quite work. And then, oh, let's look at the artwork. Yeah, I can see that they're quite, they've got great big lips. Perhaps it would help if they gave them a bit more bubble in their lips. I don't know. Anyway, you make up these words that make sense to you because that's fine. And what I have is on my phone, I just have loads and loads of notes of me going...

    13:50

    I've heard somebody and I'll go, oh, somebody actually talks like this. So I'm recording it into my phone and then I'll listen to it when I have an audition or whatever come up. Or I have on my computer, I have little files where I'll say US girl or, but there's, I mean, I'm not specific enough. What I should do is have like head voice or chest voice. But what I'm, what I do when I'm recording the notes is

    14:18

    And it sounds as though the larynx is lifted and it's very nasally. And I'll suddenly just start saying it, but I can copy it once I've heard it. So I don't, I'm not very good at all the technical stuff. Nick Redman is, I'll do a quick shout out to my girl, Nick Redman, because she's yeah, she's really good at that. And we run an acting workshop together sometimes because she comes at it from the technical side of me, from the acting side. So, so yeah, that's, that's kind of.

    14:48

    When I said working from the text, I kind of threw that away. That is really important. When you get a script, make sure you've read it all and anything else that comes with it, sometimes there's what's called a Bible, which is when an animation has images and they talk about each character and they talk about the world of this, this animation and that really gives you a good idea. And if you know the channel, like Nick Jr, they're kind of a bit more

    15:17

    wacky than Disney, perhaps. Just sort of look at the shows that are on there, and you kind of get the vibe of what they're after. They might make references. It's like this show, it's like that show, and then you can look up those shows. So really look at the Bible. Don't just read your part in it. Read what your part is to the whole story. And then...

    15:46

    go into each scene and go, right, okay. What's around me? Literally, how far away is the next character? What am I looking at? Is how big is this space that I'm in? And so there's the kind of practical things that you think about your character, where they are. And so if you have an audition, I think it's really good to mix those things up. So it's a bit interesting for people when they're listening back.

    16:16

    But yeah, that's one thing. So think about that. And then from the emotional side of things, think what do I think of this person that I'm talking to? What do I want out of this scene? I know what is my motivation, but it's true. And what's just happened. All of those things will add layers to it and make it truthful. And it makes a huge, huge difference. Yeah.

    16:41

    I think it just hits the nail on the head where you said it's about acting, it's not about stupid voices, because even if you were an on-screen actor, you'd be doing all this anyway. You'd be reading the script, understanding the character, the other characters that you're interacting with, and you would basically soak it up like a sponge and interpret that. So, yeah, it's a good point. What is the hardest part of your job? The hardest part is...

    17:11

    Well, it depends how you look at it because I find, I mean, okay, the hardest part of my job would be the accounts and numbers and stuff like that. So I've subcontracted that, but I know all voiceovers or businesses have that issue. So that's fine. So that's the most part of my job. But the hardest is probably...

    17:40

    It's probably staying, staying on top of, of what's going on. I have to constantly watch what's going on. And I go to a lot of animation events, listen to podcasts and try and figure out what's going on and go into the Manchester animation festival in November. And I'll be going to other ones so that I can find out what's upcoming, but also what the trends are. Um, and I know this isn't something that perhaps voice actors would ordinarily think about, but I.

    18:11

    myself, I take it as these are the people I'm working with regularly and to be able to talk to them about what's going on is useful and it makes life more interesting for them and for me if we've if we all understand where we're coming from. So there's that side of things and staying on top of my game. I train, I practice, I talk to myself a lot.

    18:37

    In public? In public! I have no shame! And now I've started training myself. That's given me another level which I was not anticipating. So I challenge myself quite a lot and that's probably the hardest thing is to constantly think, what should I be doing?

    19:04

    but I can imagine lots of people are in that situation at the moment. What's the animation community like in terms of reaching out to people and potentially getting work? Is it something that you get via agents most of the time or are there aspects where you can literally just reach out to people, trustworthy sources, obviously, and get work? Yeah. What's the normal way to do it? Ah ha, the normal. I hate using that word, but it just comes out. There is no normal. There's no normal, I know.

    19:34

    I think most of the animation industry people, I think they live on LinkedIn. So being there is quite good. See, I'm again, I'm saying this because I come to it with a wealth of, of contacts and experience having started so young, but I still have to reach out. And so what I find is that is one way of doing it. Finding out about projects and talking to them. It takes years for an animation project to get going.

    20:02

    I run a thing called Scripts Out Loud. Voice actors sign up to it because I am planning on doing a lot more with that next year. And I want to get voice actors working with animation companies early on in the process so that when they're working on pictures and scratch tracks and things like that, which animation companies need to do in able to get funding, get voice actors involved then because it's great for voice actors.

    20:33

    to train, to get seen. And then also it's great for the animation companies to have somebody adding real life into these projects. Agents, yes. I get quite a few auditions through my lovely agent, excellent talent, shout out to them. And so you need to get a very, very good demo together to send to get an agent. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I'd say.

    21:00

    You know, networking is really important, but just be interested in the stuff that they're doing. Don't say I'm a voice actor. It's bloody obvious. They'll get to know you and go, are you a voice actor? Okay, fine. You know, I can see we'll be wanting you in about five years time. So yeah, I think, I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with reaching out to production companies, but just

    21:29

    find out about them a bit first. Don't just do a blind mailing, find out about them. And I'd also say, don't go straight in with your demo. Wait till they ask for it. Yeah. Okay. When you're recording, do you, I would assume you record mainly in a studio on location, or is it 50-50 at home location? No. How does it work normally? No. I-

    21:58

    I mainly do it in external studios. Okay. I do sometimes record them here, but it's quite difficult to record a picture of my studio when it's just me. Um, so I have a few studios that I'll go to. That's yeah, that's it. I'll go there. And what does a recording session look like for you? Well, I do a hell of a lot of dubbing. That's my main, uh, bag really in animation. Uh, well, it certainly is.

    22:27

    probably about 80% of my animation work's been dubbing. So that's when content needs to be localized to that certain country to enable people to, from all over the world, to hear some fantastic content that they otherwise wouldn't have heard. And so I will go into a studio, most of the time there is no director, it's just me and the sound engineer. Oh, interesting.

    22:55

    And then me and the sound engineer get to know each other very well because we'll be working together for a long time and you do, I know maybe four hour and sessions, five hours, six hours sometimes. Yeah. And how many breaks are you getting in between like each session? Like how, you said six hours, but how long are you actually recording for in each? If I had a six hour session, I'd do, I'd probably say, right, can we do like three and then lunch and then three? Um, but I can have, you know, they're not, they're not torturers.

    23:25

    You just have a break, I need a break. Yeah. I'm not holding on to go to the toilet. I always get scared though. I always get like, oh, I've been recording for three hours. My throat feels like it's gonna bleed. Oh, can I ask for a break? I know I should and I'm entitled to one, but I'm like, I just feel the side eyes looking at me. This is one of the things that I teach in my workshop is empowerment.

    23:52

    You are in charge. I mean, you've got the sound engineer there. If the words of the the original language are too loud in your cans, it is your responsibility to say. And then don't, because you'll only come out of there thinking I did really badly when you could have actually owned, controlled that situation. What is your favorite project you've worked on to date?

    24:20

    I do get asked this one a lot, and I think it still is the same, which is Toby's traveling circus. It didn't get commissioned for a second series, but I really adored the characters we played. And I think it's because of the timing as well. It came and it was an original animation. And me and Jimmy Hibbert and Joanna Ruiz, the three of us recorded all of the characters in it. And it was a big circus of characters. So obviously we were able to.

    24:50

    these amazing, amazing characters and from all over the world, you know, it's a circus, all different animals, a big robot, all sorts of a dodge-em. I was a dodge-em. And there were a rag doll. There were all sorts of things in this circus. So we were like, I mean, kids in a sweet shop. And unlike a lot of the dubbing I do, we were all in the room together. And we worked with a brilliant director called Barry Purvis, who I still...

    25:20

    I'm friends with and I get him involved in scripts out loud. He's the most lovely director. We were able to rehearse and play about with it before we then went ahead and read it. And working with Joe and Jimmy, who are absolutely amazing voice actors, hugely versatile and they really throw their energy and you can tell that they can act.

    25:49

    It's just so, it was a, I was like a sponge learning from this experience. I think that's why I liked it so much as well as all the variety in it. It was being, it was learning so much and being really proud of what we achieved in the end. So Toby's Traveling Circus, definitely still my favorite. I'll check that out. I think I've heard of it actually. It was on Milkshake years ago, but it didn't go on. I'm not exactly sure what didn't work about it. Sometimes you can...

    26:19

    you can work out why it wasn't working, but I watched it and I thought that's good. But for that one, yeah, it just didn't go on. Unfortunately, we recorded a second series, but then they didn't make it because it was all stop frame animation. Oh, okay. Yeah. So it takes a long time to make it. And we've got one more question. One tip to anybody listening out there that wants to start their animation journey. One tip.

    26:49

    Start to get, I don't know, go to an acting class and be prepared to look silly. Simple. It's so simple. Okay, and before I let you go, tell us more about Scripts Out Loud. Oh, great. Yeah, Scripts Out Loud was set up over lockdown with me and an acting friend called Rhiann Marston-Jones, but she selfishly went off and had a baby. So,

    27:18

    It's kind of, it's been very, very quiet. We haven't done much, but we did over lockdown. We ran these events where we'd get actors coming onto like these Zoom calls. And then it attracted lots of people from the animation industry. So we had lots of illustrators, animators, obviously the writers and the voice actors were in the same room together virtually with a voice director directing and.

    27:43

    and then at the end a producer would talk about what they thought of the whole script. So it was a really collaborative and creative process. But it's very time consuming organising it and me and Rhianne, you know, we didn't really earn much money doing it. So we're, but we still want to, no, she's had to stop. Boo. So it's just me. And so finding the time to.

    28:10

    to do all the millions of ideas in my head is a challenge. But one of them is that's a definite for next year is Scripts Out Loud is coming back. So, yay. Woo hoo hoo. And I'll make sure I'll put all the details in the show notes so people can check it out as well. Thank you for your time today. Thank you, Joe. I've learned a lot and hopefully I'll be at the next Scripts Out Loud. Yes, I know, definitely. Yeah, oh, so lovely to meet you. Yeah, it was a pleasure. It was a pleasure.

    28:39

    And I'm going to see you soon, I'm sure. So thank you. Yes, I'll see you in person. OK, take care, lovely.

    28:49

    So what did I take away from today's conversation? Acting. This is the fundamental skill you need. If you don't have any training, then get some ASAP. This will come in handy when you need to create demos in order to get noticed by casting directors. Become the character, the way they talk, walk, look, behave, environment, et cetera.

    29:13

    All these things can be portrayed by voice and help make every character distinguishable from one another. The community is out there, so make sure you join groups on LinkedIn, Facebook, etc. and get to know the studios and talented people making these projects. Just remember to be patient. Animations take years to make, so it's not going to happen overnight. Versatility is a plus, but not a must.

    29:39

    If you could do different accents, then great, but if you can't, it doesn't mean they end up your career before it even started. There are many ways to play different roles with just using your natural accent. And finally, practice. Join workshops, study people. There's only so much you know and in order to learn new vocal styles and techniques, the best way of learning is getting out of your comfort zone and being a flower on a wall.

    30:07

    Open those ears and listen.

    30:14

    Thank you Kate and Julianne for joining me on today's adventure. Today's adventure was so much fun. So much so that I think I'm about to start work on my animation demo. Kate and Julianne run various animation workshops where they will teach you all the fundamentals needed to achieve your goal. If you are interested in joining any of these workshops or simply want to get some info, you can find all of the details in the show notes below. That's it for this week.

    30:44

    Make sure you're following the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And until next time. Bye bye.

  • 00:03

    Hello Voices, my name is Joe Troy and I'm a multi award winning voice over and host of a voice overs audio adventure podcast. A bi-weekly show where I learn about the voice over and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    00:24

    When people get into voice acting, most of us are unaware of the many different genres that exist within this industry. Speaking from my experience, I was more than happy and content with just voicing commercials for awesome brands and earning a living. Well, until you get that email, drop into your inbox with the opportunity to voice act in a video game. Just when you thought your job couldn't get any cooler, it indeed has.

    00:52

    Today's adventure is about voice acting for video games. Voice acting in gaming offers for individual to act and bring a character to life. That's not to say we don't act in commercial or corporate jobs, but in my experience, there is a clear distinction between the two and the attention to details and time taken to record a night and day. The sessions are completely different. For a start,

    01:18

    They can last anything from 4 to 6 hours and the attention to detail is so much more intense. You have to become someone else. It's not about just the vocal performance, it's about the performance full stop. As always, I like to get more than just my thoughts and feelings about topics, so let's talk to some friends of mine to get theirs.

    01:45

    Hello, my name is Mars Lipowski and I'm a bilingual voice actor. Games I've been in, I should mention one of the very first ones, Thief's Shelter by Geo Games. Some tiny projects on the way, but the most important ones yet are would be Call of Duty

    02:14

    the Polish special forces operator Gromsko. Yes! One of the first voice acting jobs if it comes to video games would be, yes, Tiefshelter I just mentioned. It was wonderful experience, wonderful people on the other side, but playing the character was quite a challenge, because the main character, a detective, suffers from a mental illness. So during the game he was going to

    02:43

    how to put it, different stages of his mental state. So it was challenging to sustain the energy during those changes. Yeah, but overall experience was great. There is a couple of misconceptions of voice acting for video games. And one of those, that is most common one if people, when people ask me about.

    03:11

    voice acting for video games is the fact that you have to put on certain voice every time. No this is not true. In many cases you play with your own natural voice and this is the best thing ever. What to expect in the session? You should expect a great guidance by a voice director slash gaming director.

    03:37

    Some voice actors going to a studio for the first time to record for a video game think that it's going to be a very difficult thing to do, recording in a studio, because there is going to be people online in the studio also, but this is... No, this is not true. Actually recording in the studio for a video game is one of the most pleasant from my own experience pleasant and wonderful things ever because there is, like I said before

    04:05

    guidance from a voice director, especially if it's a good voice director, the session goes smooth and shall you be obviously prepared for it. So my experiences in the studio recording for video games are the best ever. There is a lot of differences between voice acting for video games and other voice over work but the biggest difference is the energy.

    04:35

    I always say that the energy is completely different. Not only because you play a character, but how you play it, the emotional states, what you are going through is so much different than when you record a commercial for example. So I always say the energy is the biggest difference between acting for video games and other voice over work.

    05:02

    If I was to give a tip on how to get into voice acting for video games, I should say this. Take care of your past. What I want to say here is, if you went through certain difficulties in your childhood or teenage years, like traumas and other stuff, take care of it first. Because those bad experiences in many cases, they hold us back. They keep us tight.

    05:33

    and don't allow us to free ourselves in front of the microphones. Actually, I heard a similar thing from wonderful acting coach, Mr. Everett Oliver. He said, get out of your own head. So that's the most important tip I would give to people who would like to be in voice acting for video games. Yeah. Thank you. Hello, my name is Leonie. I'm a multilingual voice actor and singer.

    06:02

    I speak fluent English, German, and French. I've been a voice actor for about eight years, and I mainly work across gaming, corporate, and commercial genres. A few games I've been in, the most recent release would be the Phantom Liberty expansion of Cyberpunk 2077, where I voiced Aurore Cassell. I also voiced Toca Sinricstotir in the DLC, The Siege of Paris, of Assassin's Creed Valhalla.

    06:32

    And apart from that, I voiced characters in a few indie games, such as King's Bounty 2, Life After, Glam Pursuit, and many more. My very first gaming job, I think, was King's Bounty 2. And what surprised me at the time was firstly that the script came in an Excel sheet, coming from a screen and stage acting background.

    06:59

    I wasn't used to receiving a script in that sort of format. And then in the actual session, I actually got to work with the marvelous Kirsty Gilmore. How lucky am I on my very first gaming job to work with Kirsty? And I think I was quite surprised by the speed at which we were working, how it was just going, okay, next line, three takes, boom, boom, boom, pick one, or, you know, give a little bit of redirection, pick one, next.

    07:28

    Next, next, I wasn't used to working at that sort of pace from screen and stage acting. I have now gotten used to it. I think a massive misconception about voice acting for games is that it's just games. I think there's still a little bit of bias and maybe a snobbery when it comes to acting for video games. And I think a lot of people don't realize how far voice acting for games has come in the...

    07:57

    last couple of decades and that it is acting. You know, like voice acting comes with a small V and a big A. It really is about the acting. And it's actually, I would say, more difficult than acting for screen or stage, because you haven't got a partner to play off of, you haven't got props or costume or a set. You're, you know, you're stood in a box in front of a monitor, in front of a microphone, and you're having to make everything sound.

    08:25

    believable and true and fresh. And it's actually a really difficult discipline of acting. And I think that maybe within the acting world, that hasn't quite sunk in yet. Now, what to expect in a session, I guess it depends on the director that you're working with, but mostly you will sort of start by having a chat about the character depending on how much time there is. You can go deeper or not so deep, and then you'll be given the script, the lines.

    08:54

    as I said previously in an Excel sheet, and you'll go line by line, depending on how the director likes to work. Sometimes you might read through a whole scene, sometimes you'll just go line by line, and usually you'll be giving two or three takes per line, and then either the director will pick their favorite, or you might be given some redirection, and then you'll do it again until the director is happy with what you're doing, and that way you just, you know, you just make your way through the script.

    09:24

    until either time's up or you've made it through the entirety of the script. So for anyone interested in getting into voice acting for video games, I'd always say that the first and most important thing is to learn how to act. So I would always say try and find some acting classes. It doesn't have to be specific voice acting classes, but just some acting classes, local to where you are, online. Join an improv troupe. Join an Amdram theatre group.

    09:52

    Any of those things can be really great ways to exercise those acting muscles and start becoming comfortable with just the craft of acting. And then once you feel comfortable there, then you can start looking into specific voice acting classes, which there are so many of online. There are incredible workshops and classes and courses available online. And that's really just a question of a Google search. And then I always would say, try and find the community because there is such a huge...

    10:20

    incredible community of voice actors out there and they're always happy to give a leg up to anyone who's passionate about getting into the field. And you know, the rising tide lifts all ships so it's always great to find the people who can help you along the journey. Thank you Mars and Leonie. Some great advice indeed and always helps to hear and learn from other people's experiences. The standout pieces I took from them both were to get out of your own head and not to hold yourself back.

    10:50

    And the fact that acting for gaming isn't acting, which is so weird to hear people still think this. Acting by yourself and responding to dialogue that isn't there is going to be a lot of what you do and is a very hard skill to master indeed. It should not be underestimated in any way. Trust me. Okay, so we have some insights. Let's go on to our main guest this week.

    11:19

    I got the chance to speak with Ryan Lawton, someone who I've been following for a while now. I have followed his work over the years and he definitely knows what he is doing. I got to ask him his route into the industry, some of the struggles he faces, tips on how to get more work and more.

    11:44

    Okay. Hey guys. My name is Ryan Lawton and I work as a voice actor, predominantly for video games and animation. So what made you want to get into voicing for games? How did you get here? Okay. How did I get here? So I actually, I moved, I'm originally from Lincolnshire and I moved from Lincolnshire to London to study an acting course at university.

    12:10

    Before that, prior to that, I was working, sorry, studying at Lincoln College, doing a performance arts course as well. So it's kind of always been in my blood that I wanted to do something that was acting related, drama related. And as I was drawing towards the end of my university course, I kind of realized, like, I'm a huge nerd. I play a lot of video games. I watch a lot of cartoons. And I was like, hang on, that is a job as well. Somebody does that.

    12:40

    So why not me? Like, so yeah, from there, I sort of started exploring what it was to be a voice actor and what it involves. And yeah, from there just cracked on it and ran at the goal of being a voice actor for video games from that point of graduating. You studied, but did you study specifically for voice acting in games or was it just acting in general? Yes, so not at all, it was acting in general. There wasn't actually anything on my course.

    13:09

    even slightly to do with voice acting for video games, commercials, or anything. So I remember we had a module right at the end of my university degree, where the lecturer kind of said, what, let's talk, what would you like to go into? What, what's a sort of avenue of acting that you'd be interested in? And I said to her, well, voice acting for video games. And she was like, great, that's so interesting.

    13:33

    And then I think it kind of dawned on her that they don't do anything related to that in the university module. Um, so there wasn't, there was, obviously there was a lot of character building and improv and really valuable skills that you can utilize in voice acting for video games, but specifically voice acting, there wasn't anything on the course related to that. So it's kind of something I chased after myself rather than was prompted by the university.

    13:59

    So did you go directly into gaming or did you dabble around in other aspects in voiceover? So I kind of had my heart set on doing voices for video games and quickly came to realize that to be a voice actor professionally, you need to be able to spread yourself a little bit over more than just one sector of the industry, at least to begin with anyway. So I was auditioning for pretty much anything I could get my hands on that was voice acting related.

    14:28

    I didn't have a studio when I first graduated and my university were nice enough to let me use their studio that they had, which they predominantly use for music students rather than acting students. But they let me use that. So I auditioned for audio dramas, I auditioned for cartoons, video games, anything that I could kind of sink my teeth into. And my first job was actually not a video game. It was an audio drama. X-Men the audio drama, which

    14:58

    for me as a huge nerd was like, whoa, blew my mind that I managed to land a role as a nightcrawler in this excellent drama. Which I still, yeah, yeah. So it was a favorite character of mine as well. And I'm still recording it to this day. And that was about eight years ago. So I still do that same character with Skyther podcast. If you're a big nerd as well, please check them out. Cause you will love it. There's so much content on there. X-Men Avengers, that kind of thing.

    15:25

    But yeah, I landed that role first. And from there, the feeling of getting that role and actually portraying one of these characters was mega. I knew from that moment, yeah, this feels good. This feels right. This is what I want to do. Yeah. Okay, so you get that first call, that first gaming role. Talk to me about it. How did it go? How did you feel? Like what was challenging about it and what surprised you? So I think the first video game projects that I worked on were a lot of smaller indie games.

    15:55

    Um, and they were just as fantastic to work on as some of the big games that I work on now. Um, and I remember landing the roles and you go in the studio and obviously it was the first experience of having a director in my headphones while I was recording something. I'd been directed before at university and that kind of thing, like having a director right there, but to have like a virtual director was, was something very new for me that surprised me.

    16:25

    And also the fact, actually a good thing was the fact that I could do more than one take because I've been so used to doing theatre where it was like, you're on stage, if you mess up, you've messed up and everybody's there. And it was, yeah, it was interesting to have a director, but okay, that was cool. Now let's try it like this or now say the line like this, and then be able to pick, take a B or C, whichever they preferred obviously, but yeah, working in the first video game and then actually seeing it released.

    16:53

    seeing that game released was like, wow, this is so cool. Like I can tell all of my mates download this game I'm in it. And then I'm from there, I quickly, not quickly, like relatively quickly landed quite a large role for Warframe, which is really a big game that a lot of people play. And I did a couple of these smaller indie games.

    17:19

    managed to get an audition for Warframe. I didn't know at the time that was the game. It was just for this specific character. I did it and I remember getting the call of the email to say, oh, congrats, you've got the role of Boon, this character in Warframe. And for me it was like, Warframe? What? And then from there it was like, oh God, now I'm playing with the big dogs. Like, am I ready for this? But they were so kind, even knowing that I was quite fresh to the industry.

    17:47

    They were incredibly kind and yeah, the team at Digital Extremes were wonderful. And, and since then I've gone on to work with them again, but it is daunting when you get that first role just because you're, you're so in awe, you're so humble, you're so grateful and you don't want to mess anything up when you get in the studio, you'll please make this go well. Um, so yeah, a whole mix of feelings, I guess. So what would you say is the difference between a AAA game and the indie in terms of your recording experience? Um,

    18:16

    I would say for a lot of the indie games, sometimes you're okay to do those in your own space, in your own studio. Perhaps you'll be given the lines for the game and you won't have a director. Sometimes they don't have a director who's going to walk you through each line and work on the character with you. You're kind of given the lines, you've got the audition, they liked it and you have to run with it yourself, direct yourself in that moment. Whereas the larger games...

    18:44

    You'll usually be asked to go into a studio in my experience, uh, potentially in London or your surrounding area, be asked to go to a proper studio where you have an engineer working with you as well. And for those games in your headset, you've got probably a writer from the game, a director for the game, a couple of, um, game random game developers who are working on the project as well, maybe an intern, then the engineer.

    19:09

    and someone from the studio. So you're looking at like six, seven people sometimes all listening in at the same time, all helping you to mold this character to the best it can be. So you definitely have a lot more sort of hands-on from the game developers in the moment of recording, I think with the larger AAA games. Which do you prefer? Oh, hard because I've worked on some indie games that I absolutely love and probably wouldn't be where I am in my career today if I didn't get to work on those games, but I have to say.

    19:39

    working on the larger AAA games is just so cool. Yeah. It's a really special feeling too, because they also probably have a lot more fans. There's a lot of fans for these games. So you really want to impress. You don't want to let the fans down. People love these franchises already. They love the games. So they're waiting for this new character. And there's, you feel the pressure of possibly thousands of hundreds of thousands of people are going to play this game. They're going to hear your voice.

    20:09

    So you want to give the best performance you can. Whereas some of the smaller indie games, they do get large audiences, but I feel the pressure maybe is slightly less because you don't feel the fan base might not have grown yet as big as some of the AAAs already are. How do you handle that in terms of like having, cause in your mind that's probably, you know, you trained to be an actor on TV or film, and this is the closest.

    20:36

    that you can get to that in terms of in the voiceover world anyway. So is that something that you mentally prepared for or did you think, oh, I'm just going to do voiceover for gaming, you know, hopefully do some of my favorite games and, you know, just enjoy my life. But now you've kind of been propelled into this kind of stardom where you've got people messaging you and saying they love you or they think you should have done this or they hate you. Like how, how do you work with that?

    21:04

    That was definitely not something that I expected when I first wanted to go into voice acting because to work in some of these like recently working on Diablo 4 and yeah, the games Warframe and Warhammer and that kind of thing. Yeah. I've known about all of those franchises, all of those like video games and franchises since I was young. I'm playing those games and you never expect that you're going to be actually voicing a character in one of those games yourself alongside a lot of the time.

    21:34

    actors who you really adore and are inspiration to you, even though you're not necessarily working in exactly the same space together, they're in the same game as you. And that is very humbling. But yeah, I don't think I was prepared to work on the big games to be honest. I was, I was very happy even just going in, like I said, when I first got these indie games and audio dramas, that for me was, that was mega at the time. That was like my own, my own little stardom, you know, I was like, wow, to voice in the game. But yeah.

    22:03

    to work on the AAA ones now is crazy. It's such a great feeling. What would you say is the most challenging role you've played to date? The most challenging role. So recently I worked on Total War, Warhammer 3, and I was fortunate enough to land the role of the Changeling. And they brought out their new DLC quite recently, which is The Shadows of Change. And this guy is like one of the leaders of a big chaos faction.

    22:33

    within the game. So he's quite prominent. You can pick him as a playable character. So the pressure was there already because the Warhammer community is huge, an amazing community, but massive. And you think, okay, they know this guy already. He's not being created for me. He's already in their world and you have the job to bring him to life. So the pressure was definitely on to record that character. But even the voice itself, he's like a sort of ethereal ghost-like creature.

    23:01

    So the voice is so strenuous on your voice to be able to do that for the, uh, for the periods of time and to keep it sounding the same the whole time. Um, and now because this character is also a changeling, he has the ability that he can change into any other character in the game. So I was like, damn, how are we going to do this? Um,

    23:27

    and it was working with Creative Assembly and they were fantastic, the directing was great. And what I had to do was record every other character's like ultimate voice line when they dig their big ability. I had to record that, but in the voice of the changeling, but still following the same intonation as the other voice actor for their character. So that was a big challenge, definitely. Yeah, how long was that? The reward. How long were the sessions themselves? So we were doing sessions of

    23:56

    four hours tops, four hours max. Because when you're doing anything strenuous like that with your voice, to record more than four hours, you're just gonna burn out. You can hear it in your voice, you can damage your own voice. And luckily, yeah, the guys at Creative Assembly were very aware of that. So we were only doing sessions of max four hours, maybe sometimes two hours, three hours, but never more than four. Do you do anything to help with your vocal stamina or anything like that?

    24:24

    I do. I do. Yeah. I make sure that I warm up each time before I even go in to do an audition. I did learn this the hard way at the beginning of my voice editing career, because I was just hammering out the auditions. Yeah, this one, this one. I wasn't warming up. I wasn't hydrating myself enough. I was just loving the moment. And I really damaged my throat actually. And it took a while for me to recover my voice properly. My throat was really sore on the inside and I went to the doctors to get it checked properly because

    24:53

    said, this is my tool. This is how, if I lose this, then I'm, I'm not earning any money. So, but yeah, now I, from, from that moment, I really make sure that I hydrate constantly, constantly hydrate myself, do my vocal warmups before going into any session, it doesn't matter even if it's a big shouty one or if it's something that's much more low key or just an audition, it's still important to do those warmups. What do you think of the

    25:21

    misconceptions of your work when you tell a normal everyday person what you do. What's the response normally like? Yeah, I've heard a lot of stuff. Some people love it. I think people who maybe play video games and watch a lot of cartoons, they understand what it is to be a voice actor. So if you talk, a lot of people will say to me, oh cool, what do you do for a job? And say, I work as a voice actor for video games.

    25:47

    Oh, why was you not good enough to do proper acting then? I'm like, no, not even, I'm not even going to engage with that one. Yeah. That's, that's a response that some people say, or some people go, Oh, I might try that out. You know, I'm like, just on your weekend, you might, it's okay. Like it's a long process. Like voice actors work very hard to, to get where they are by all means, try it out, but you need to be aware of what it involves. It's not just.

    26:14

    I'll just record some stuff one day and maybe I'll be in the game. Like you have to go through the whole process of, of yeah. Practice, practice, practice kind of thing. And yeah, some other responses do you get when you, a lot of people say, Oh, cool. Tell me a video game that you've, tell me something you've done. Yeah. And I say to them, do you play video games? No. So then I go, okay, it's not going to matter what I say to you there. Yeah. Tell me again, tell me a project you've worked on. I say, okay, I don't know.

    26:43

    Warframe, when they go, they look blank. Like they have no idea what I'm talking about and say, you don't play video games. So this doesn't matter to you at all. Uh, so yeah, some people very impressed. I'd say some people maybe through a lack of understanding the job, not so impressed. In terms of getting jobs themselves, um, obviously I know you're with agencies as well, but do you get the majority of your work through an agent or is there?

    27:11

    you know, another way that you get your, your jobs, like what, how does it work for you? So now, in my current position, I get most of my jobs, I'd say a lot of my jobs from my agents, but also a lot of them are from past connections that I've developed over years of working in the industry, which are auditions that I picked up at the beginning of my career, probably from a few pay to pay sites I was on.

    27:41

    and a couple of other like Mandy and these different places where you can get some different auditions come through. And I got a couple of jobs from them or directly emailing game developers as well. I worked hard at that at the beginning of my career and still do now constantly emailing game developers, casting directors, passing on my voice rail, passing on my website with my credits, et cetera. And through that process over the years, you build up these relationships where

    28:09

    You work on a game, whether it's a small or a big role. Uh, but those casting directors remember you, those game developers remember you, and it might take two years before they make another project or they work on their next game where they start to need voice acting again. But you can bet if you worked well together, they'll definitely come back to you because it's good rather than having to look for a new voice actors. Which I'm sure they are always are doing. It's nice to be able to have a little talent book of people you've already worked with to be able to go back to them and say,

    28:38

    Hey Ryan, remember we worked together three years ago and you say, oh yeah, you did this character. We think you'd be great for this character now. So it's a big combination of having an agent now is fantastic because you get auditions via your agent that you don't have to necessarily put the leg work in for. But then at the same time, I would never just rely on that. I'm always, always emailing myself, contacting game developers myself and.

    29:06

    keeping those relationships alive, even with people that you've worked with before. So they don't forget you're like, Hey, I'm still here. Here's my updated voice. We are like, have a listen to this. See what you think. So yeah, kind of a mix. Why do you think you've been successful in this field? What do you pride yourself upon? Like, is it a certain accent, a certain tone in your voice? Like, why do you think you've been successful in this specific genre? That's a hard one.

    29:36

    I think, I think also because I play a lot of video games as well, I pride myself on understanding how the dialogue works for a video game and the sort of voices that are generally required for a game. Obviously there's all kinds of different vocal tones that are needed depending on the genre of the game. Yeah. But because I'm always playing video games as well, I always have my ear out. I'm always listening to.

    30:03

    The other voice actors who have landed these roles, it's one of the best practices you can do. If you wanna voice act in video games, play video games, and listen to the people who got the roles. And you can listen to their acting choices, the intonation in their voice, how the dialogue works in an RPG game compared to how the dialogue works in a sports game or a puzzle game. They're all really different. So, I...

    30:29

    I guess I pride myself on knowing the niches of video games and the different sectors and how to manipulate your voice to be appropriate for that particular style of game. Don't get me wrong, I do have some go-to voices that I'm like, okay, if an audition comes up and I'm like, ah, it's, it's, I don't know, like a 60 year old villain. I'm quite good at those kind of roles. Even when I was like 20 something, I think some of the first roles I landed were for like 60 year old guys. And I was like, damn, is this.

    30:59

    I'm 23 and I'm booking 60 year olds. Is this good? I sound like an old guy or I can sound like an old guy, but yeah, there are those particular like genres of voice acting that you're like, okay, yeah, this is my jam, medieval RPG games. You're like, I might have this one. So actually that's a good segue to my next question. What are your favorite types of games to play? Okay, so for me to play personally,

    31:28

    has to be RPG games. I love the fantasy element. I'm a big D&D player as well. So playing D&D and playing these role playing games all kind of come hand to hand in this fantasy world that I love. Sci-fi games, anything sci-fi. But I also play quite a lot of like battle

    31:55

    not saying that I'm great at them, but I do play a lot of them. Yeah, Apex at the minute is one of the games I like to go to with a lot of my friends. Overwatch as well, I used to play that religiously, just because I love the kind of the colourfulness of these, they're really colourful these battle royales, those styles. I don't play a lot of Call of Duty and these kind of more serious, darker ones. Too serious for you. I'm more, yeah, yeah, I'm more into the...

    32:24

    You know, this girl's got purple hair and I don't know, it's two huge laser guns kind of thing. So yeah, I play a lot of those battle royale type of games as well. Okay, well, I've got one more question for you. And it's always the way I like to end my conversations. To anyone listening out there who wants to get into voice acting and gaming, could you give any tips, any resources or just any way they can develop skills? Sure, absolutely. I touched on it earlier and said,

    32:54

    that playing video games is a great way to learn the style of voice acting for video games. So yeah, to reiterate that fact, even if you don't like playing video games, but you want to get into video game voice acting, go on YouTube, watch some footage from a game. You don't even have to play it because listening to the voice actor that's got that job and hearing their character choices, the different tones of their voice is such a valuable resource when you go into auditioning for

    33:24

    video game characters yourself. Apart from that, I would say when you, when acting is the core, acting is the core of voicing characters for video games. They have to be believable characters in less than obviously you have some crazy characters that are a lot less believable, but acting is still at the key of those at the source of those characters as well. So go into the studio and kind of don't think of yourself as a voice actor doing a voice for a character.

    33:50

    think of yourself as that character. When you're in the studio, you're not a voice actor putting a voice on. You are that cave troll or you are that knight who's just come from like horseback into battle, that kind of thing. Really embody the character. Same with physicality. When you're in the studio, don't sit down on a chair if you're recording as someone who's about to do a battle cry. Stand up, like use your hand, make that action.

    34:19

    Careful not to hit the microphone, because I've done that many times. You use your movement, you know, you can hear the movement through the voice. So yeah, if your character's doing some evil grin, make sure you're doing the evil grin yourself. So you can hear the body almost. So yeah, embodying the character and really honing in on listening to other voice actors do their thing in video games will help you a lot.

    34:47

    Ryan, thank you for your time today. I'm sure the people out there have got a lot of tips and tricks. So thank you again. And I look forward to see what you've got next coming. Amazing. Thank you so much, Joe. It's been a pleasure to be on. So, yeah, thanks for the invite. Really appreciate it.

    35:10

    So what did I take away from today's conversation? Understand your voice, know its strengths and weaknesses. Voice stamina is a big need in this area of work. Assessions can be very low. If you don't warm up, look after your voice, et cetera, it's not going to look very promising for you. Yes, gaming looks cool, blah, blah, blah, and it definitely beats a boring corporate read, but remember, it's not for everyone.

    35:37

    It's not all glitz and glamour. You're going to work on a lot of smaller jobs where you'll be recording in your bedroom at the start for the majority of the time. So know what to expect. This isn't a negative, but what I'm trying to say is unless you really enjoy acting and or gaming, you may grow tired of it quickly.

    35:58

    It is an agent-led market, but it's an industry with a lot of indie studios who you can contact directly. Find your favourite developers of your favourite games and show them what you can do, but only when you are ready of course. And finally, understand how dialogue works for games and the certain voices that are used. Listen and learn.

    36:22

    You wouldn't go for an interview before you researched for company, so why think auditioning without knowing what the casting directors are looking for would be a good idea? Be as prepared as possible.

    36:42

    Thank you Mars, Leonie and of course Ryan for being a part of this episode. Three very talented and kind individuals. You can find all of their details below as always. Remember you can always reach out if you have any questions for me. My details are also below. We are at the end of another adventure yet again. Make sure you're following the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And until next time, bye!

  • 00:03

    Hello Voices, my name is Joe Troy and I'm a multi award winning voice over and host of a voice overs audio adventure podcast. A bi-weekly show where I learn about the voice over and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    00:26

    The animation industry in the West consists of a vast array of talented people telling amazing stories from all over the world. But what is happening in other countries of the world that may not get the same attention due to resources and opportunity? What do you do if you are from a country where the animation industry may not be as big or the infrastructure is non-existent?

    00:49

    The usual way would be to go abroad and to gain knowledge and skills and in turn work for a major studio abroad. But there are some people out there who are determined to create industry at home. Today, I'll be speaking with Hamid Ibrahim of Kugali Media, one of these people who have created their lane for themselves and not looked back. So much so, they've managed to get Disney's attention.

    01:19

    Today's adventure will be focusing on the animation industry in Africa. My name is Hamid Ibrahim. I'm one of the co-founders of Kugali Media, which is an African storytelling company. We focus on telling stories that kind of explore the past, present and future of Africa. And we don't try to limit ourselves to, and we use different mediums. We started off with comic books, and then we moved to augmented reality. And then now we are diving into the animation world for the last couple of years as well.

    01:48

    So that's Kugali-wise, myself personally. Experience-wise, I started off as a portrait artist. That's before uni. I'm going to start including that in there since I made a bit of money, not much but a little bit. Then from there, I worked in advertising for animation. So animation in advertising. So it was called Electric Theatre. Then I worked in the Hollywood scene for a bit as a visual effects artist. Worked there for about a year. Worked on five different movies. The only one I tend to talk about is Lion King since...

    02:16

    the original Lion King inspired me to start the journey and it was kind of an honor to work on the remake of it. So that's me in a nutshell. Nice. So where did the love for all of the arts come from? Where did it start and how did you fall in love with comic books essentially? Because that's where you started, you said. So yeah, how did that all come to fruition? On my end, it was kind of two different areas.

    02:45

    So in terms of the love for art is slightly different than the love for animation or even the comic books. I'm not as big of a comic book geek as my other two co-founders. They are way deeper into the world. My girlfriend is a bigger comic book geek than I am even. I'm just going to be completely honest. She calls me a fake geek. So she keeps poking me with that. But originally, I said my first inspiration was Leonardo da Vinci.

    03:09

    And that was in art itself, right? And I think what happened was, it was an advert that was playing in TV. I was in Kenya at this time. And I saw it's advert showed Mona Lisa much more than just art. It was a water bottle advert. I don't know what water bottle it was, but they included that in there. Uh, looking at that, I went through it and it was a thing of like, I, the image struck me and I went to research who made the image and I found Da Vinci. And then if you know anything about Da Vinci, his life is very fascinating. And from that point, he became an idol.

    03:35

    kind of an idol for me. So I always wanted to kind of mix science and art and everything like that. Just, just be like him in a way. So that was like my first love for art was through Da Vinci and through the Mona Lisa. That's the first thing that kind of drove me there. And then love for animation separately kind of came in from watching Lion King, the original Lion King. And that one it was mainly because I speaks Wahili because I grew up, I spent 10 years in Kenya when I was growing up. So from one year old to nine years old, so technically eight years in Kenya.

    04:04

    From around that time period that was in Kenya. So I speak Swahili and it kind of caught me by surprise That there was cartoon speaking Swahili when they went Hakuna Matata and even the vegan and I thought everybody first time I thought I was dreaming And I kind of liked it from that point and became my favorite animation And then luckily when I was all day I watched it again and he was actually better than I thought Because I was scared to watch it. I thought it would be trash. I thought just like because of the singing and all that That's the journey of me liking animation comic book specifically. I kind of fell into that world where

    04:34

    Because if you know anybody in this country, in the West, who works in visual effects, most of them love comic books. Now I came from a slightly different angle, which my angle was more from the design angle. So I'm more in love with the kind of theory of design and things like that. So I love that a lot more. Even the animation and anything I do in that area, it usually kind of ties down to kind of the science inside it as well. I have that deep love with that. So I was never like a huge comic book fan. I read the-

    05:02

    kind of like the ones everybody should read, right? Like Batman, the Killing Joke, you know, like those ones where it's like, if you wanna read, you have to read this because I read those ones. And then starting with Gali, my other two co-founders were bigger into comic books. But the reason we started off in comic books, it's the easiest barrier to entry. So with just a pencil and a paper, you can make a very high quality comic book. But if you're trying to make a high quality animation with just a pencil and paper, that becomes a very tricky journey. And if you're looking at thinking about Africa itself and telling African stories.

    05:30

    if the way you can produce high quality work, which was one of the big goals I had, is comic books. And that was one of the only limited ways we can actually do visual art in a high quality. So we said to do the focus in that area there. And then he also helps out Tolua and Ziki, huge comic book gig. So I got more into comics from that. So Kugali actually made me read more comics than before. So before Kugali, maybe I read maybe 10 comics, right? Maximum 15 comics, if I'm thinking about it. There was a super striker series. Okay, that's a lie.

    06:00

    The Supa Strika series in Africa is to read every single Sunday. But that was the only one which I read consistently outside that all of them would read like one or two issues of something around. So when you were introducing yourself, you've got a long, your resume is quite long even before, I don't know if this was before or during Kugali, but how did you get into these rooms, you know, working on different projects and

    06:27

    you know, just getting your foot through the door. How did you get to that stage and how did you find it? One of the things where, you know, the survivorship bias where because you made it through the ship, you think it's gonna be straight forward for everybody else. In the beginning part of my career, it's very hard for me to give advice since it's not getting to the room was a tricky bit, was making the collection of the skills and everything I acquired is a trickier bit and the route I went through. So I'll give you the example, right? So...

    06:57

    When I came in this country, because I came all of a sudden, so I came as a child visa. And we realized that if I turned 18 in Uganda before I came here, that child visa is no longer relevant. So I got pulled out of school in the middle of, it's called all levels. That's the equivalent of GCSEs in this country. So I did not get to do that. I got pulled out about three months before doing that.

    07:22

    like just just impromptu. So I got like a two week notice, I'm moving country for the rest of my life kind of thing. So it was that I jumped from there to this. When I came to this country, I remember knowing is that I knew that I was starting from behind in a way. So I went to college and I did a course there, I also did functional skills, so I didn't have just this is a functional skills, which no big uni respects really. So it's that thing of knowing that in my head, kind of lit a bit of a fire inside me.

    07:51

    that combined with the fact that it was now, because when I was in Uganda, I didn't really imagine it was possible to actually make animations. I don't know, in my head, it didn't seem like people make it. It just seemed like stuff that just appears on your screen. Yeah. Like you never like a reality. When I came here and I saw the course and actually managed to get into the course in college based off my portfolio purely. When I saw that, you realize that it's possible. That first step being like people make this, and now there's actually, even if it's not a clear road.

    08:19

    There's a little bit of a light. You're like, okay, if I'm the best here and I'm the best in uni, I'm sure I'll get something. That was my whole plan was like I have to beat everybody in everything. Right. So in college, I might try to get a distinction in every single project we did. Like three was about two years or two years and a half about. I got a distinction in every single project. I don't care if I liked it, if I hated it. I was just like, nobody's going to be able to argue with my numbers. So that was how I go. And my portfolio reached out to people in uni.

    08:48

    before I went to uni, I reached out to people in uni, and I was just looking at the people who are there, their portfolio and everything, and my goal was I'm gonna make sure my portfolio is better than their portfolio, so if they're already in the uni, I'm gonna be better, right, that was the thought. And it was at Skyrim, the first moment, Skyrim went court-in-court, right, because you have the theory in your head, but you have not executed it, was when I applied to the unis, and obviously I'm using fashion skills, I'm applying to the best unis for animation and things, and it's that thing on my head of like, ugh.

    09:16

    But if nobody, none of them just look at the functions and they just ignore me. And everybody accepted me. Everybody was like, hey, come through. Right? And that was the first time where I kind of had a belief came inside me where people start breaking rules if you're really, really good. Right? Cause remember I came here from Uganda and obviously the only people I knew here were my mom's friends. So I didn't have, I didn't even have friends my own age. Right? And my mom is in, right now she's a nursing, but she said over that time she was in care. She was doing care work, right?

    09:44

    And that's a very limited industry. There's no upward mobility whatsoever. You're doing what you're doing there. That's a job from beginning to end, in other words. So it was kind of like that environment. But going through this and them seeing the unions breaking rules for me, so I'm not going to mention the unions. I know because I found out this was illegal. One of the unions took me out for dinner. They wanted to hug. And I was like, yo, this is me. I don't even have like, quote unquote, the actual qualifications. I really don't have all of them.

    10:13

    I guess I have really good grades on what I could do. And my portfolio is just really strong. Like that was the whole thing. Right. And that belief kind of led me to kind of keep trying to be so good that people will break rules for me. That was the whole philosophy, even through uni. In uni, I played an even bigger risk where I knew I could get a first degree, but I was like, nobody I've spoken to in the industry has ever mentioned to me about their degree, like no one. So I played that gamble. I was like, you know what?

    10:42

    For the dissertation bit, I'm just going to pass it. As long as I pass it, I'm good. But on this thing here, which is going to add to my portfolio, I'm going to make sure it's going to be absolutely, insanely amazing. And I got the highest score for that in the last, I don't know how many years I got the highest score for that, right? So it kind of bore fruit there. And it paid off still. It's one of those things where they came to look at the portfolio, which they did. Nobody asked me. Nobody asked me for my degree. Like,

    11:09

    I don't even know where it is. I've found it recently because I was looking for my naturalization certificate, because I'm planning to do some stuff like my girlfriend applied for a government job, so I had to check my naturalization. That's when I found the degree. I didn't even know where it was. Nobody's ever asked for it. It's a portfolio for our field. I had a really strong portfolio. I only applied for one job. That was the one who was working in the MPC, the working with the Lion King remake. I remember

    11:37

    I did, I was looking at people in masters, at people in masters at that time, some of them were struggling with master simulation. Now I know for sure MPC making the realistic animals, they do muscles and so on, because it's a jungle books kind of play through. And I went, I'm gonna learn to do muscle simulation. And everybody was like, yo, everybody who tried this flopped, I was like, no, I'm gonna get it. And I got it. And it was that thing in my head, I was like, I'm not gonna be better than the people I'm like on the uni. I'm gonna be better than people in masters and whatever, and people in industry. That was my goal, because I was like, that's the only way you're getting. So if you put those together, hindsight wise,

    12:06

    Of course I get a job, but in the situation there, I was freaking out. I was like, maybe like, I remember the first job I got was electric theater. They reached out to me. You remember the one I told you with the animation thing? I didn't apply to them. It reached out to me. And I remember I replied yes to the request because of the K guys. We saw it was, Hey, I made, we saw your work that I want you to come up first. I didn't read the rest of it. I replied, yes, I'm available. I'm going to, then I read the rest. I found out the union, sorry, the company in London. I went to University of Hertfordshire. Who is Hertfordshire? I didn't even see the page.

    12:36

    Luckily it was decent pay, but I didn't care about anything. I was just like, you are a job care. I just applied. Yes. So if you think about it, it's more like the collection of everything I kind of had there that made that footing easy. Now that I was sought after even till today, slow down a bit, but ever since then a month doesn't go by without me getting a job request at LinkedIn. So there's always people trying to kind of reach out to me in a way. So I've kind of made myself kind of a very, very strong portfolio. You're very, very strong.

    13:05

    Now, portfolio was when in uni. Now as an adult, I know portfolio even, portfolio is good for entry, but in terms of if you can stack up a good story about what you can do, so the leverage you can own, right? So for example, my leverage right now is super strong because I've worked in industry and you know I've worked in projects from the underside, from the factory side as I call it. I've led a giant project now with Uwaju, so I've done that. I've started my own company, so I know the inner workings of running a company within a project in animation.

    13:34

    and within the African space. Not many people can actually put those three things together. If you collect my experience, which is what the outside world cares about if you're going to evolve higher, my experience is super strong and I keep making that stronger, whereas in uni it was more on my portfolio. So that's kind of like the success path, at least from my end, which I think is a best way to approach it.

    13:57

    And when did you decide to create Kugali? In terms of starting Kugali, it's one of the things where, you know, that thing where everywhere you go, people are telling you how to achieve your dreams, but nobody really tells you what to do after. And what happened was my biggest dream at that time was working on a big film. And I got to work on a few big films. The one I talk about is Lion King remake, because it inspired me. And

    14:23

    After that, after I did that, you kind of left in a really weird position where you have this huge burst of like happy emotions and then everything kind of just titills off a little bit. So you are super excited and then after you're excited, everything goes weird. You realize the world is still the same. It's a very weird feeling. And from there, I started kind of exploring what my next step is and I kind of decided, okay, I've done my dreams. So now let me try and do something for the world. And at that point,

    14:51

    I saw an animation from Legos, it was Malaika. And what I was trying to do at that time was, I was like, okay, these guys are trying to do something. And I looked at the skill I had, and I noticed that the quality of welcoming from Africa was not the quality that would compete worldwide. And I decided with the skills I have, let me try and see if I can pull African storytelling as a thing I'm doing for the world, pulling African storytelling to the world scale or world level. So that's kind of like the Kugali ethos of how I started out.

    15:22

    And then from that, you started off, you said, Kugali essentially started off as comic books, but then you went into the world of art and augmented reality. How did you get to that transition and what made you go into that? It was one of those things where the stars aligned in a way. So augmented reality is, because remember I come from a VFX world, right? So I am quite well versed in animation, VFX and the rest.

    15:51

    Now the great thing about augmented reality and how it was happening right now was it was mostly running on mobile. So Snapchat was like the biggest thing with AR at that time. Meta joined in TikTok right now is joined the game as well, right? So in terms of augmented reality thing. So like the, if you remember the snap.dog and all the different Snapchat filters, what people call them right now. And that was the biggest AR platform. Now the advantage of it being mobile is it has to be small and run very fast on the mobile phone.

    16:18

    on real time, so it has to be real time and run quickly. That gives an advantage where if you're a small studio, you can make really good AR experiences, because in that you don't have to build a whole universe. You just have to make something smart enough and fun enough for people to use. And I kind of explored the opportunity. I was like, OK, we are small enough. We have the knowledge. I have more knowledge than most people in the game in this area that I've worked in VFX, which is more complicated.

    16:43

    And I just taught my team how to do it. And obviously then we kind of continued on that path. And the other bit of it was we're trying to find ways to explore the feature of storytelling mainly because if you notice with a lot of changes in the world, it does happen in the West. And then Africa comes two years later. I, we wanted to be in the forefront in this one. Yeah. So that's kind of like how we ended up in AR. And then Disney came. How did that happen? The Disney one was a very funny story.

    17:12

    I could say the comic book, but we had not really done a huge comic book yet, right? And the first huge comic book project we took over was doing the first ever African comic book anthology. And obviously because it was the first ever African comic book anthology, we kind of caught the attention of a few people, especially the fact that Kickstarter went well. So we were planning to raise 10,000. I think we ended up raising about 20 something thousand, so over double of what we're planning to raise for the book. And BBC caught wind of this.

    17:40

    because it was going a little, it was semi-viral, it was viral for small people, that's what I call it. BBC got ahold of this and wanted to kind of do a little BBC stories on us, on what we are doing. And then they did the BBC stories. And during that, I remember they recorded us a whole day of interviews. And in their part, one of the things they said was, we're gonna kick this ass in Africa. Now, when I did, when I said that, I remember in my head thinking, that was a bit abrasive. The meaning was there, but the way I said it was a very abrasive way, so I was like, ah, they'll never put that in.

    18:09

    And now comes January, February, the title of the whole thing, the title of the actual thing was African comic book company going to kick Disney's ass. And the way that came through now, obviously the BBC story goes out, right. And it gives us a lot of attention. People are looking at it. And now this is from Jen Leeside, who is the chief creative officer of Disney. Now she sees this and apparently from her story, actually I'm not spoiled her story. I know it's going to be in, there's a documentary we're making. It's going to be inside it.

    18:39

    but she sees this and then they reach out to us. I've left a gap in between there, which is another funny story. But she gets one of the Disney execs to reach out to us. Now she reached out to us on LinkedIn, and I think she had just made the LinkedIn account, because I think she was trying to reach out to us, but you know, it's a lot of noise at that time, you know, when you're getting attention, a lot of noise, and then we're not, we're not a small company. We don't have like a lot of like online appearance, but you can definitely know it's us on LinkedIn, just because you can see the experience, you can see it's connected, the company on LinkedIn and everything, right? So they reach out to us through the,

    19:09

    First, we don't believe it's them. And then after obviously we believe, we just start talking to them. One of the things where they reached out just to talk and see what we're doing. We already bought some of our books to read some of our stories. At that time we had a few free comic books online. That's when I started doing the free comics was at Sindos and then bought the ones they liked. They had the books with themselves. By the time we had the meeting, they had the books in America already, which was wild. And then from there, we just ended up pitching them the stories and the rest is history. Yeah. Wow. Since...

    19:38

    you know, that big whirlwind of, you know, them finding out about you and obviously you working on Iwaju. Would you say that your fan base or interest has come mainly from Africa? Or do you think it's more global? It's more global, but US has a bigger, like if you connect it with Disney specifically, US has a bigger chunk. Although I'll say with the announcement, the people who made the most noise was Nigeria, as you can imagine.

    20:08

    because the story takes place in Nigeria, Nigeria is then to be very, like they are hard, let's put it that way, they make sure they are hard. So Nigeria was on the top of that list in terms of that. So our fan base in terms of general growth, I think, let's go with Africa, Nigeria had a big boost. Other parts of Africa as well, but Nigeria was like a clear leader, he was like not even close.

    20:31

    US tends to be the biggest. And if you think about the comic book industry or animation industry, US dominates a lot of that. And then you go to Japan and the rest with manga, right? So you have manga and you have the US one. So it tends to be those two people are dominating most of it. There's French, but that's more niche at the moment. But that's the landscape. So based on the, it just reflected based on the landscape it was there. But there's an extra thing with announcement where you could clearly tell Legos was like absolutely raving about it.

    21:01

    In your opinion, how has the animation industry in Africa changed since you started to where it is now? It's grown quite a lot. I'm very happy with the growth. Actually, that's one of the things I was thinking about. I was super, super happy with the growth. Interestingly, I was so happy with the growth. At some point last year, I was thinking after Iwaju comes out, I was going to step down for like a quarter, like three months to try and see, because I would have reached the goal I wanted to hit, to see how to re-evaluate the goal.

    21:30

    Obviously this year ended up being a bit of a tricky year for the whole industry. So I have to stay in a little bit longer. I don't have time to take my three month hiatus as of yet. So I'm going to be kind of stuck here for a little bit. But it's reached around the areas I wanted to reach. The infrastructure is still not there. That's the only thing I'm focusing on right now. The other thing I'm going to focus on mostly, even if it's a three month hiatus, is the infrastructure. I'm kind of doing it slowly.

    21:56

    But obviously it's not as much focus, right? Obviously just more focus on Kugali and trying to close a few other deals, trying to get that ball rolling more and just push that envelope more. But I feel we definitely hit a huge crack in the dam with Iwaju's announcement. Just the announcement of Iwaju. I would say the first huge crack was Black Panther, right? Which kind of brought in belief for Africans, for African based storytelling. And sure it could be exciting to a lot of the world. Most people did not really care until Black Panther. And then from Black...

    22:23

    Black Panther, our announcement kind of hit a huge, huge hole in that dam, especially for people in Africa. So Black Panther kind of portrayed Africa from the Western lens. But this was like all of us, African, all our stories are based on people who live in Africa, people who are working on this. A lot of them worked, a lot of them live in Africa as well. So it was my very different perspective. We kind of opened up that door and even there was another project that coming after the kids as a motor one as well and all that. So all those multiple things kind of, I'm very happy with where the industry is right now.

    22:53

    Obviously there's a lot of work to do, but I love that it's gotten to a point where there are some projects coming out of Africa right now, which I can be like, oh yes, although I still think there's a lot of work to do. There's a lot of work, but we've made significant progress. In terms of working on future projects and so on and so forth, you touched upon it just when you answered my last question, but how much African talent versus global talent or even talent from the diaspora?

    23:22

    are involved in these projects and is it something that you consciously try to involve as much as you can into your projects? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Short answer, yes, we try and do that as much as possible. Longer answer because one infrastructure and also the amount of high quality artists in Africa is not quite where we want it to be. That's the bit when I say we have work to do. We have a good amount now, but they're spread out and...

    23:50

    it's not as much depth as most places in the world. So for example, just UK's animation industry beat the whole of African animation industry, I think if you put it in terms of just people working in the industry, obviously you can, because of the infrastructure exists in the UK, whereas in Africa we're trying to build that ourselves at the moment. So the projects tend to be one of the things where we pull in as many talent we can from Africa, but we can't really do any large major ones to the quality I want, at least us.

    24:19

    There are some studios which have done some, so Triggerfish will be one. You should look into them. Where they've managed to do some feature length stuff, but they still don't get it. There's not enough infrastructure for it to be a world event. It tends to be a very local event. So at the moment, African industry is very much, the infrastructure only allows for a local event at best, but very few world events. And we're trying to get to the world event level. So if you do it completely with all Africa at the moment, like,

    24:47

    it's very high for it to be a world event. I know we are getting there. Hopefully we can hit that. That's one of the goals we have fun enough to hit that. Where would you say the concentration is in terms of, you know, just talent or events? Talent wise, if I'm using info, I'm gonna use the infrastructure as a good kind of predecessor because it kind of predicts it predicts what the next generation is gonna be, right? Not just what is here now, but what's coming later. The top, the ones which are kind of moving the fastest right now, South Africa is a clear lead.

    25:17

    at the moment with South Africa, just because they have a few studios that can actually produce feature length animations, right? Now distribution and etc. different story. But in terms of the actual production, there's few studios in South Africa that can do that. Lagos, Kenya would be close, there'll be a tie, but those ones would come close second. Egypt, actually, no, it will be South Africa, then Egypt, then I'll put Lagos and Kenya a close tie. Uganda industry is growing up from there, but

    25:46

    slight bias. I know more about the industry because I'm inside there and there's a few schools I'm working with from back home from Uganda trying to get their talent kind of up and obviously it's a tough year in the industry this year so let's see by the end of next year who is going to be around because that's also a factor right now in that this year has been absolutely tough for a lot of industries, a lot of industries back home so let's see by the end of next year what is still there

    26:15

    sorry Kenya, Nigeria would be a tie in terms of their infrastructure for that and also available talent for that as well. That tends to be how it is. Nigeria is growing faster just generally, I think mainly because of the music industry is helping out in that area. The problem we're seeing with Nigeria is a lot of the talent tends to leave the country. That's generally all over Africa but South Africa seems to be the ones who hold on to their talent in the country more than the rest of their continent.

    26:46

    What kind of talent are you looking for and how do people know that you're looking for them? Because we are small, right? We are a small company doing big things is how I like to describe us. We're trying to be as strategic as possible. So in terms of how to look for talent, usually there's two steps. If it's an obvious role, we will set out and we'll say, hey, we're looking for this thing. We'll post it on social media, LinkedIn, et cetera, et cetera. That we're looking for the job. And then we get people who apply and then we kind of hire them based off that, right?

    27:16

    So there's that route, but the other route, which is one we tend to do a lot of is because the industry is small and we are connected to a lot of it, we know the people personally, so we can just reach out directly to different people. And if a new person is working, is coming, is by the new big name, there's somebody who we know who knows that person. So they'll be like, hey, you're looking for someone there. This kid who is coming up is really good. And they'll just introduce them to us. So there's a lot of that, of introduction through different people that happens. Just because it's really hard to.

    27:44

    put out like a job advert and get actual applicants from back home in Africa. Just because the infrastructure for that in that area doesn't exist yet. It's there's no, like most people don't trust just for beginning. Nobody's checking for that. They're checking it through like this person, not this person. And that's so we kind of just fitting in with how you work with most persons in sub-Saharan Africa, at least. And before I let you go, is there anything else that you would like to let the people know you're working on or just plug anything?

    28:13

    Working on a few things at the moment, we are planning to go for an investment round. We're actually already doing it. We're talking to a few different people. If you're personally interested in investing, that's something we are working on right now. Not just Kugali, we're coming up with a new strategy as well, on where we're going to create investment for specific IPs. Keep your eyes out for that. That's going to be really interesting. Again, this is in lieu of we're trying to break free of

    28:43

    what's it called, needing the, in other words, at the moment, there's no big enough African project that can happen, which comes in where the African people are in full control of it in a way. There's no worldwide event that can happen without, let's say the big players, without Disney, Paramount, et cetera, et cetera, right now in Africa. And we're trying to beat that. And that's why we're raising money on investment and investment based on thinking. So we're kind of gearing our whole strategy next year to kind of.

    29:12

    base it on that. So that's coming up. Obviously, what you is launching next year, it's been pushed up, it was supposed to come out this year. I think we'll push next year because one I cannot mention the first reason I will tell you guys in the documentary. The second one is obviously Disney's had a hell of a year this year. So I'm sure a lot of that restructuring kind of affected us a little bit as well. So that's coming out next year, which is great. We have still have a few books in the works, which are coming through. So things are still moving.

    29:42

    But it's just, it's been a, what's the word, been a slightly slower year than our previous years this year. Still have a few successes and announcements, but nowhere close to the years before this one.

    29:55

    Well, I wish you the best of luck in 2024. And I'm sure it's not only me, but a lot of people are waiting for Iwaju. So we're very excited. And yeah, thank you for taking time out today to speak with me. Thank you for having me. Yeah, looking forward to 2024 too. And good luck to you as well, 2024. Seems crazy, it's already here, but time flies now.

    30:20

    So what did I take away from today's conversation? Hearing Hamid's journey, it has definitely cemented my thinking that luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. If you are ready to lose it all and will stop at nothing to get to your destination, then there's only one way you can go. Up.

    30:41

    Whether you're a voice talent, animator, sound designer, or any form of creative, try to get into the industry. A portfolio means everything. It's all good having qualifications and learning the fundamentals, but unless you can show it in context or in the real world, it doesn't mean anything. What I'm trying to say is, is that you don't need the world to get started. Just an idea and of course, talent.

    31:09

    Once you show your talent and what you can do, work makes work. The more you work with people, the more they know how you work and can trust you will do the job. And finally, infrastructure. This is at the crux of any industry and without it, it does not exist. This is growing in Africa and with continued work from the likes of Kigali, it will only continue to grow. The future looks bright.

    31:43

    Thank you Hamid for taking time out to speak to me. I learned a lot and I'm sure this is motivating many from the continent of Africa and the diaspora around the globe to carry on their hard work and reach their goals. Make sure you keep an eye out for Kugali's debut animation with Disney, Iwaju, coming to you in 2024. And we are done with another episode once again.

    32:09

    Make sure you're following the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And I'm gone. Bye bye.

  • 00:03

    Hello Voices, my name is Joe Troy and I'm a multi award winning voice over and host of a voice overs audio adventure podcast. A bi-weekly show where I learn about the voice over and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    00:25

    Hello and welcome to another episode. Today we are going to be learning about how sounds and voice can be used for branding and the theory behind it. Sounds are always around us and one of the senses we often take for granted in terms of how much we use it, but we are subconsciously being advertised to all day, every day. Today's adventure is about sonic branding. Today I'll be speaking with Kim Asperling.

    00:54

    a creative account director at Massive Music. I've been also working with Massive Music for about nearly 10 years now. I wanted to ask her what is sonic branding? The different kinds of branding and what it may look like in the future. Let's go.

    01:14

    So hi everyone, I am Kim. I have been working in audio for the last 10 or so years now. My career started off, I was actually an actress, trained as an actress, and that was my first inkling into the world of voice and voiceover. And then I started out as a voiceover agent, and there I was doing everything from recording talent reels to building kind of career strategies for our artists.

    01:43

    And then I moved into the world of audio production. So I worked for a transcreation agency where we were doing lots of multi-market campaigns, helping with finding talent across different markets across the world, and then focused on full production and casting mainly across the UK. So that involved really writing scripts, helping directors or writers in creative agencies in the advertising world.

    02:09

    to write scripts that were fit for voiceovers, helping with the direction of the talent, and finding voiceovers as well that were maybe a little bit more niche. So, you know, I remember one of the asks that we had was actually to find a 92-year-old voiceover artist. So it was kind of street casting, approaching people in communities, that sort of thing.

    02:33

    And then I went into the world of ad tech and led a creative team there. Again, everything, audio production, writing, casting. And now I work for Massive Music, um, where we do everything in the world of Sonic branding, as well as music activations and partnerships and where voice fits within that. So what is Sonic branding? So Sonic branding is essentially.

    02:58

    the sounds that you associate with a particular brand. So the best way to think about it in the sort of simplest term is when you think about a brand, they all have a visual logo. And as soon as you see that visual logo, you know who that brand is. Sonic is essentially taking that visual logo and bringing it into the audio space. So if there is no visual audio present, sorry, visual logo present,

    03:26

    then you can actually be able to determine who the brand is just by listening to it. Now this is fantastic obviously in spaces where it's audio only but it also works as a really great sort of partner with visual assets so if you see the Sonic logo, the visual logo, and then you hear the Sonic logo with it you automatically have that association.

    03:52

    So now when those two are together, you've got that association, but if you split them apart, anytime you see them apart, you'll still associate it with that brand. And a sonic identity or sonic branding isn't just about the sonic logo, but we can actually start to think about what are the other sounds of the brand? Maybe it's branded music. Maybe it's music that they use across their IVR. Perhaps it's a voice.

    04:20

    artists that they use across all of their comms. Perhaps it's even things like product sounds. When you listen to the sound of your Apple laptop and it's switching on, that sound is synonymous with the brand. And thinking about brands like Skype, for example, they have loads of different sounds that are living within the actual product, which every time you hear it, you associate that with Skype. It feels like a family of sound.

    04:46

    So it's essentially taking the brand to that next level by introducing all these other touch points in areas where we're meeting with audiences and consumers and we're allowing ourselves to have that connection with them through sound. It's funny you said that because now I'm thinking about it, it feels like I'm exposed to more sonic branding than actual visual branding on a day-to-day basis just by using the products themselves. Would you agree? Exactly, exactly. I think...

    05:16

    with sonic branding, it's really quite subtle and in a way that can really play on the subconscious because you don't even necessarily think about it when you switch on your laptop and you hear that sound and it is part of the Apple Sound Suite. But the subconscious is actually so powerful because that's actually where we make our decisions without even thinking about it. So from an advertising perspective or marketing perspective or brand,

    05:44

    This is actually the realm in which we really want to play in, to be able to connect with our consumers without them necessarily even feeling like we're encroaching on their space. All of a sudden, they feel like they have this brand sort of engagement.

    06:03

    And they really love that brand for some reason, but they're not exactly sure why. And the reason for it is because subconsciously we've been working in the background, working to create that connection between the brand through subtlety, through things like sonic logos, product sounds, voice, et cetera. Okay, so I'm sure that there is a science behind this. And I'm sure it's not as simple as, oh, I'm just going to...

    06:28

    at my hands and this is my logo now. What is the method behind the madness? I'm sure it's, we could make a whole episode about it, but in a nutshell, if you could explain to the person like me, there's nothing about it. How would you explain the process? Yeah. So there is, as you say, there, there is a lot that goes into it, but I think the core sort of themes are to truly understand the brand.

    06:54

    And there's a lot of legwork that needs to be done in order to do that. So you're gonna go through research, understanding where they sit within the competitor landscape, where they want to be versus where they are now. What are the brand perceptions, the history of the brand? So really starting to understand the brand as a whole, as you would do when you're doing a visual brand identity as well. And then from there, we'll start to pull out some key themes, some key sort of,

    07:23

    brand attributes in which to then start thinking about the sonic brand. Now when we talk about that there's so many different areas within sonic branding that we could cover as I've sort of touched upon things like voice, logo, product sound, branding, music, all of these contribute to that holistic ecosystem, that family of sound. So everything that we do from a research perspective we then convert

    07:50

    into different attributes depending on what it is that we're trying to create. So if it is for example a voiceover, a brand voice they want to use across all of their marketing, then we need to understand who the brand is, then translate those attributes into, okay what does that mean in terms of vocal quality? What does that mean in terms of the profile of the voice? Because a lot of brands get really caught up in, let's just use a celebrity because

    08:20

    We really like that celebrity and they're really popular at the moment. But if that celebrity doesn't fit with and align with the core values of the brand, how they're perceived, where they want to be, it doesn't make sense. And if you don't have the correct partnership between a voiceover and a brand, because the attributes don't align, it's not going to resonate with the listener.

    08:40

    So these are the kinds of things that we have to do. And if we're not just thinking about it from a voiceover perspective, but from a sound perspective, it would be thinking about things like what types of music, what types of genres, what types of instrumentation feel aligned with their brand, but also feel distinct to the brand because there's nothing, it's not gonna connect with your audience if for example, all the sounds sound the same. So we need something that has a unique story behind it as well.

    09:09

    When you spoke about voices for branding, how do you know if you've got it right? I know this sounds weird, but there's gonna be instances where you're going to cast a celebrity, for example, cause of the name, and then you realize, no, this just doesn't connect. It doesn't hit. Okay, let's find someone else. How do you change your search criteria and how do you know what you're gonna look for? Yeah, so I think, again,

    09:38

    Hopefully, if you've done the kind of legwork prior, you should have a solid enough strategy that whoever you do choose should work for the brand. But we do also offer testing services. So what we can actually do is we utilize two types of testing actually, one which is more survey-based and one which is more emotion-based. And when I say emotion-based, it means that it measures...

    10:00

    how people instantly react to something and then determines on that level whether they're connecting with that particular voice over artist or that particular piece of music. So usually what we do is pin up a few different voices together or a few different music options together and then be able to test which one is getting the most things like engagement, recall, et cetera. And we work with the clients to figure out what it is we're actually trying to test.

    10:30

    It's not just about, well, does the voiceover work? Because does something work to one client, might meet something different to another client. So it's like, are they trying to get people to recognize the voice? Are they trying to test whether the voice is bringing out specific emotions in someone, like warmth or happiness? Do they feel confident when they listen to this voice or when they listen to this piece of music? How do they feel? So...

    10:59

    We map out exactly what types of questions we're trying to understand and then depending on which testing route we go for, we're able to then determine that and then able to adjust our insights accordingly, which can then help us if we need to recast the voiceover or continue developing the music track. And at Massive Music we have a full research team that does all of this with all of the research capabilities. So that's essentially the probably the most tried and tested way.

    11:28

    to prove that something is working. What would you say is one of your favorite Sonic branding in your career that you've come across or worked on yourself? That is a tricky question. I think, I mean, there's a couple that I'm working on at the moment. I can't share any details yet. You can't talk about, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    11:50

    But they're definitely going to be something that I'll be shouting about a lot next year and you'll understand why I've chosen those. I think the main thing is, well, there's two things that I look out for in order for it to be a favourite of ours and that is that it's super distinct. So because Sonic branding really is on the rise at the moment, everybody's kind of talking about it. It's becoming.

    12:18

    a little bit of, you know, a few years ago, no one had really heard of it. Whereas now the numbers for people asking for it has risen dramatically. So as it's continuing to rise, the problem with that or the challenge is that every brand still remains distinct. And so when something has a really distinct story in the way that it was produced, for example, then that's where it can get really exciting. So thinking about.

    12:47

    the instrumentation that was used was that instrument, a particular instrument that was famous for some reason, like a grand piano that hasn't been touched in a few years or anything that can make the story a lot stronger. The other thing that is really makes something stand out and for me with class as a favorite is when the family of sounds really, you can tell that they all come.

    13:17

    out of that same brand, out of that same holistic ecosystem as we like to say. Because I think if you just have a Sonic logo or you just have a brand voice, it's only doing half the work. But when you actually start to look at brands like Apple or Skype, where they're incorporating small details like product sounds, as well as the bigger details like Sonic logos and brand voice, that's where I feel like we're doing the full job.

    13:47

    of that Sonic brand and that's where it can get really exciting. How do you see Sonic branding changing? You said it's got more popular in the last few years. Where do you see it going in the next five years? How do you see your role changing? So I think, you know, a Sonic brand, the entire purpose of it is that it's supposed to be future proof. It's supposed to be consistently used and used in such a way that

    14:17

    you know, it lasts for years and years to come. And perhaps the only thing that would differ is maybe slightly tweaking it, slightly modernizing it. If you think about McDonald's, for example, and the da-da-da-da-da, I'm loving it, right? There's been so many different iterations of that over the years, how it's changed. And I think the core melody has remained exactly the same.

    14:41

    And so I think in the future, Sonic branding will do the same thing in terms of how it sounds. The mnemonics and the way that it sounds should sound exactly the same. However, we need to kind of see how we can adapt and modernize it for different bits of content. And that brings me on to, of course, AI. And when we start to think about AI voice, we start to think about all these AI production techniques. How can we start to potentially bring that into this landscape?

    15:11

    in a way that doesn't mess with the original nostalgia of that sound, of that core brand, but perhaps brings it into the new age. And that's where I think we can start to have a lot more fun and things can get really interesting. And Sonic branding as a topic, I'm sure a lot of people have heard of it, don't know much about it. Where can people find out more if they're interested in, you know, just in terms of working in it, or just want to find out more?

    15:39

    So I think online, I mean, there's loads of different companies that do Sonic branding. There are loads of articles and markups at the end of the year that actually take all the best Sonic branding projects and kind of compare them and put them in a list. I think that's done by Soundout, but I double check that publication. So there is a lot of stuff that's been published about it now,

    16:09

    I also think in terms of the awards and advertising and the industry as a whole, we're starting to look at Sonic branding more in categories across different awards. We're starting to look at things like BrandVoice. BrandVoice is still a little bit further behind than Sonic branding at the moment. Where Sonic branding was maybe five years ago when it was just starting is where BrandVoice is now. And so we really have an opportunity at this point to think about

    16:38

    how we can get the brand voice in the same arena as Sonic Branding and ensure that they do feel aligned rather than separate. And I think that's what's really going to be exciting over the next few years. And hopefully what people can find out more about as things start to develop is exactly how these two worlds align and that there will be a lot more out there for people to actually listen and engage with and view. What is brand voice?

    17:06

    So brand voice is essentially thinking there's loads of different ways to use it, but essentially a voiceover that is associated with a brand and it's best used, as I said before, in this holistic sonic branding system. But with a brand voice, it can be used across things like their marketing, so advertising, of course, radio, TV, digital, but it can also be used across things like...

    17:31

    the events that they speak at, perhaps it's the voice of God type voice that they have at any business to business events. It could be the voice that they have across their podcast to introduce the podcast. If it's again a B2B podcast or whether it's actual podcast to the consumer, it can be voices that are used within their system. So thinking about self-checkout, thinking about IVR. So all of these

    18:00

    sort of touch points, whether they're using a consistent voiceover across all of this, so that it feels like that specific voice is always associated with the brand. And there's some really great examples when you think about, for example, the Meerkat in Compare the Market. Every time you hear that voice, you automatically can visualize this character and you know Compare the Market. Go Compare, same sort of thing.

    18:27

    And even voices that you don't necessarily always see the visual. So for example, the voice of Come Dine With Me, who is now the voice on LD. So all of LD's content has this voice. You don't see this voice, but as soon as you hear it, you automatically think about LD. So that is a great example of a brand voice because they're utilizing voiceover to make that connection to the brand.

    18:54

    How would somebody become a voice of the next big brand if they're listening and they want to be the next Audi voice? So I think if you are working as a voiceover in the voiceover industry, ensuring that your reels showcase that you can do as much diversity as possible. If your reels are really only showcasing one sort of style that you can do.

    19:21

    That's great, but it limits your chances in the sense that unless those brand values and everything that we've done in the research phase of understanding the brand aligns with that voice, your chances are a little bit slimmer. So the more that you can showcase, you can do in terms of different styles, not necessarily different voice-like, as in changing your pitch or anything like that, nothing like character, but in terms of different moods. So really showcasing on your reels that you can do

    19:51

    you know, something that is maybe a little bit more informative versus something that is a little bit more upbeat. Because when we're thinking about casting a brand voice, we're looking at all of the specific aesthetic parts of the voice, so pace, rhythm, tonality. We're looking at your profile. If, for example, they want someone that has a comedic background because it ties in with the brand. Or, for example, with LD, they wanted the voice of Come Dine With Me because...

    20:18

    It aligns with food, it's already recognizable. So anything you can do to kind of streamline who you are as a person or as a profile. That being said, you don't always need to be a celebrity because sometimes we want a voice that we can mold to the brand. And then the last thing is to showcase basically that when we're doing the casting phase, we can go, oh, look, if we...

    20:42

    This part of their reel really showcases that they are very human and grounded, which is part of the brand. However, this part of the reel really shows that confidence and assertive nature of the voice. So we can go, this voiceover is perfect because depending on the content, we can flex according to the attributes that we need. Well, Kim, thank you for your time today. Um, no, thank you for taking your time out and explaining. It's, it's a very interesting topic that.

    21:09

    is around us every day and we kind of take it for granted. So it's good to get explanation about it. So thank you for that. Oh no, thank you so much for having me. And yeah, I mean, I look forward to hopefully connecting with some of you. Once we do have some new briefs on the cards and any questions, feel free to find me on LinkedIn and reach out.

    21:35

    So what did I take away from today's conversation? When creating a sonic branding for a client, understanding the brand is imperative. Research can be done for years in advance to get to the final stage. Thinking about where the client is versus where they wanna be is a good indicator to the direction they may choose to go down with their sonic branding.

    21:58

    Brand voice and sonic branding are two different things but can go hand in hand and for the voiceovers out there, this may be of interest to you the most. You may or may not be considered to be a voice for the brand but remember, there are so many opportunities out there to be cast for something. Make yourself seen and heard so that when the opportunity comes knocking, you are ready to take it with both hands. And finally,

    22:26

    Sonic branding is not new and it's only going to get more popular. It's not going anywhere. So learn more about it and find out how you can be a part of it.

    22:45

    Thank you Kim for taking time out to speak with me. I always like to get into the psychology of how things work. So this was definitely a fun one. As always, I will include Kim's info in the show notes below. So feel free to reach out. I'm about to go, but before I do, always make sure you're following the podcast so you don't miss an episode. Thanks for listening. And until next adventure, bye.

  • 00:03

    Hello Voices, my name is Joe Troy and I'm a multi award winning voice over and host of a voice overs audio adventure podcast. A bi-weekly show where I learn about the voice over and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    00:25

    to land that next big drop and be heard by the masses as the next voice of insert title here. But how do you get these roles? Today's adventure is about casting.

    00:40

    not all jobs are created equally, some jobs will land in your inbox and make your life easy, but the higher paying or the more acclaimed roles seem to be like unicorns. These jobs are usually provided by agents or casting directors who will ask for auditions via mandy.com or job boards or directly to you. If you are lucky to get one of these castings then

    01:08

    It's time to show the world what you can do. But what is the right way to do this? And how do I beat our competition? Let's hear from some friends of mine, see what they do.

    01:26

    Hello, my name is Catherine Moran and I'm an actor and voiceover artist as well as a writer and I also movement direct and choreograph on professional productions because why the heck not. The first thing I do when an audition brief lands in my inbox is go a little mini get in. Because it's an acknowledgement that

    01:55

    an opportunity of work has come to me, to you. And that's a little win in itself. So I do a little shimmy and then once you got over that bit, I'll be checking next for the specifications as to whether this audition is right for me. And by that, I mean specifying the gender of the voice that the client's looking for, the accent that they're looking for.

    02:21

    the recording date, do they want a live session tomorrow morning and I'm already booked up and if so, I shouldn't waste their time now. All of those little details are worth clarifying before you've even got to the meat of the actual text because it pays to be thorough. And at this initial stage, I'm also wanting to check the budget and the usage that the client is looking for. It's always better to clarify that before you've sent an audition.

    02:50

    or at this very first stage so that complications and miscommunications don't come further down the line when your voice has been chosen, but you haven't realised what you've agreed to. Then it's time to get stuck into the text, which is the juicy bit. So ideally you'll have received some information about who the client is and what this text is for.

    03:18

    Even better, you might receive some direction and even better than that, you might receive a demo video or maybe some chosen background music, which I personally find really helpful to help pitch the tone and the pace of the read. However, you don't always get those gorgeous supporting materials and in that case, it's time to get a little bit Sherlock up on it.

    03:47

    And by that, I mean researching if there's a brand name in the text, looking them up and finding out who they are, what they do and the kind of energy they put out in their marketing currently. If it's a pre-existing video game series, researching as much as you can to find out what is the world that they create. Another great question is who is the intended audience for this piece?

    04:13

    Is it going to be an international audience that might require a more neutral accent? Or is the client a London based university and they really want to resonate with their local students? All these little clues will help you to deliver the most informed and your best read for the audition. Some do's and don'ts for auditions would include things like clarifying pronunciations,

    04:43

    do that. If there's a brand name that the client needs to clarify, pop an email back and check. Or if there's a long medical term. The internet has wondrous spoken dictionary pronunciation videos that I have shamelessly referred to on many occasions. Once you're happy with all the text itself, if it's a really short audition, if we're talking a commercial read that's maybe 10 to 15 seconds.

    05:12

    I would offer three reads and make sure they are really different from each other. When it's such a short audition text, I think there is space to show some variety in the audition, but it's something that the client might actually have already clarified within the audition brief as to whether they want multiple takes or maybe only want one take, as well as how they want those takes labelled or uploaded to a certain portal.

    05:38

    Just pay attention to all those details because it shows that you're efficient and can take direction. Auditions can be a real thief of time and a pitfall for perfectionists. So I would say do take care of them, but don't spend too much time. Don't pull your hair out trying to get that perfect read because there's only so much we have control over.

    06:04

    And there's only so much time you need to take over an audition. So maybe set a timer if you're like me and want to keep retaking and bettering and being really hard on yourself. Hi, my name's Jack Ayres. I'm an actor and voice actor predominantly in video games and character work. What's the first thing you do when you receive a brief and what do you look for? So I'm going to answer this question primarily sort of

    06:34

    from an angle of characters for video games and animation because that's kind of my main area of interest. So the first thing that I would do when I received a brief would be to look for two things, facts and clues. So usually when you receive a brief for a character, usually you'll get sort of like a table of facts shall we say. So those being the name

    07:03

    a stated accent or a few accents that they're potentially looking at, some personality traits and in an ideal world also a picture is very useful as well. And all of those things you can use to start building a picture of what this person sounds like. So, any physical features, whether they're hunched over in the picture, whether they are wearing heavy armour, whether they've...

    07:30

    got some kind of injury, all of those are things that can be used to start building a vocal profile for that character. The other thing is clues. So these are things that are less obviously stated in your brief. So for example, you might have a script and a lot of the time you can get pretty useful information about how the character might sound or how might behave from the script. So for example, I'll use a quote from The Last of Us.

    07:58

    You're not my daughter and I'm sure as hell not your dad. So without explicitly saying it, you can use those lines to glean what might be happening in the wider context of the scene that you're auditioning for. So for example, you're not my daughter. You can figure out from that that potentially whoever they're talking to might be missing a parental figure and also that the character that's speaking that you're auditioning for, maybe they've lost a daughter. Maybe there was some kind of traumatic...

    08:27

    experience there and you can use that to build on that person's personality. If you don't know exactly what's going on, just decide for yourself because if you're clear on what you think the situation is, then I think that really does come across in the way that you'll read a character rather than just kind of leaving it ambiguous in your own mind because when you do that you can sometimes risk your work coming across as ambiguous as well.

    08:56

    things you should or shouldn't do. First and foremost, it probably sounds quite obvious, but always follow instructions. A lot of the time, castings will give you specific instructions that they want you to follow. These are generally things that just make whoever's going through all the files lives way easier later on. So name your file the correct way. Don't just make up your own file naming system because you will not be popular.

    09:25

    And if they ask you to only give one take, for example, then make sure you listen to that too. However, something that I found has worked well for me. If no guidance is given on that kind of stuff, then I like to give options. I like to generally give two different reads of a script. But if you are going to do that, make sure that your reads are different. Again, going back to choices.

    09:52

    that you've made specific decisions on the two different offerings that you're going to give. Because if you just do two of the kind of exact same thing, then you risk almost working against yourself by making it look like that you can only do one thing, that you're a one trick pony. Another thing that you probably shouldn't do is don't audition for absolutely everything. So what I mean by this is sometimes there'll be multiple roles that you can audition for in a project.

    10:22

    Don't audition for all of them just because the options there. I say this because if you submit five different auditions and three of them are a bit meh and two of them are really good, again it could almost sort of work against you because it shows you got a lack of awareness of what your strengths are maybe and they're going to be remembering the not so good thing that you sent in that they had to listen through as well as the good stuff.

    10:51

    So not saying you have to be really limited, but anything that you do submit, make sure that it is to the best of your ability. Thank you, Catherine and Jack, for some amazing insights to how you deal with auditions. Now we've heard from the actors, it's time to speak with a casting director, and that person is David Peacock. David has been voice directing for almost 20 years.

    11:17

    He has worked all over the world on titles such as Thunderbirds of Go, Hilda and Moonman Valley to name a few. In 2021, he was nominated for an Emmy for his voice direction on Hilda, and in 2022, he won an Emmy, a supervising dialogue editor on Octonauts' Ring of Fire. So he has a vast array of knowledge to share with me today, and I can't wait. Let's go.

    11:48

    Hi, I'm Dave Peacock and I'm a voice director and casting director working mostly in animations, but also in some live action dubbing as well as animated dubbing and some commercials and things like that. And I've been doing this quite a long time. Can't really work out the years. It's quite a lot of years. And we've probably done about a thousand episodes across about 30 series and

    12:17

    dozen features and things like that. Wow. Okay. So how did you become a casting director? It was quite organic. I was a sound engineer working in post-production. So I was working with a lot of animation directors and stuff like that. And they would say to me, oh, who would you think would be good for this role? And I'd recommend people and then they'll say, oh, can you arrange to get some people in for the casting? So I arranged that.

    12:47

    And then realized I was given quite a lot of advice and quite a lot of knowledge free. And then I said, can I charge for this? They went, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. So it's like, oh, okay, that's a job then, that's good. So right now, do you work for yourself or do you work for studios? Like in terms of, you know, you said you got your opportunity. How did it progress from there to get more work with other people? I went freelance.

    13:14

    and left the studio that I was working at in 2012 with my partner who's also a sound engineer and a great casting director. And she does lots of editing. I go out and do lots of voice direction. We come home and we edit the stuff together and deliver it. So probably about, how long ago was that? That was about 11, 12 years ago. And since then, just word of mouth and networking has brought in lots and lots of great series that we work on.

    13:43

    Which is good. And if you're working on a project and you're looking for a voice, for example, what does the process look like in terms of you have the character or what you're looking for, I would hope, and then do you reach out to agencies or do you, you know, what determines whether you look for agencies versus going to someone direct? The process can work.

    14:13

    in a lot of different ways because sometimes we're brought in just to maybe cast a single character or maybe recast a single character that there's been problems with. We sort of get quite a lot of problem solving jobs when somebody's like had a go and it's not working or somebody started something and it's not working or there's one character that nobody can cast and then we get that call. Also we also get the whole.

    14:43

    Here's our series, please cast it and record it and then back to us jobs as well. The best way of working is when there's lots and lots of dialogue with the clients and with the decision makers. So you get inside the brains of everyone that's making those choices. So you're not just going into something blind or just with, you know, a sheet of paper with somebody's ideas on it.

    15:11

    There's one, there's one job that we did very early on, which we cast from gut and just basically got a bunch of people in that we thought would be good and did a test read of some scripts, which they sent us and then sent it back to them and said, okay, are we on the right track? And they went, no, you're totally not on the right track because this is not what you want at all. We want it, you know, high, hyper, hyper real.

    15:41

    and really, really serious. This was for a preschool show. We're like, okay, we will do another casting and we'll do it that way. So we did the same thing again, but with a different direction. And then we sent it off to them and they went, no, no, it's wrong, isn't it? We like what you did the first time. So continue down that route. So sometimes, you know, your gut feeling, which might not be the same as the client's gut feeling, you know, you've got to listen to that as well.

    16:07

    So as regards to actually answering your question of how we do stuff, is we look everywhere. We look absolutely everywhere. Obviously we go to agents, we use spotlight ever such a lot because sometimes you're looking for a character type, and although you're obviously looking for versatile actors that can play lots of different character types.

    16:33

    If that character type is embedded in the person, you just feel it and it just comes out of them. And you believe it a lot more. If you're asking somebody to play something which they have no life knowledge of that thing, it's a bigger job to get them there. If they are that person that they're playing, albeit in an animal form, an alien form or whatever character form.

    17:01

    they'll get there easier and it'll be more believable. And then you can start to push them around and make it really, really funny. So we look everywhere because as our job as cast directors, the best compliment we can get is when somebody goes, wow, how did you find that person? Because they never heard of that person. They wouldn't have been able to find that person. And the other casting directors they went to didn't find that person. So...

    17:26

    Don't think that you need an agent to be cast. We've cast people that haven't got agents, but we do need to be able to find those people. There's no good sitting at home going like, I'm brilliant, I'll be found, because you won't be, because I'm not in your home. Luckily. If you send out a casting call, is it time sensitive? Like for example, say you've got something you said is gonna be closing at the end of the week. If I sent you something tomorrow, would you listen to it?

    17:55

    or would you wait till the end of the week? No, you'd always get ahead of the game because you do not want to be listening to 50, 60, 70 things all in one lump. You've got to be just doing it as a process. Otherwise you just get too tired. So like agents and people that wait to like the last moment or go like, oh, can we just have an extra day? It's just like.

    18:23

    actually, you may not be able to have an extra day because I've probably given you till end of play Thursday, so I can have everything to my clients. By the time I said I would, which could have been end of play Friday, and I need to then basically make sure everything's labeled correctly. And you know, everyone gets a fair crack of the whip. So it's very important that you deliver on time. And delivering early is even better.

    18:48

    Nobody's going to think, oh, they don't care. They did it in 10 minutes. They may have had that 10, 20 minutes, two hours free, and they could give that time to that rather than be rushing. Sometimes we've ended up casting, especially kids, if they're rushing around in their day. There's one cast that was obviously recorded on a phone as they were going to school in the car. But it was a great read. We saw them. You know.

    19:17

    So, you know, you don't have to have free. That's interesting actually, because there's been times when I've obviously not been behind a microphone and an audition comes through. And I have the same mentality of, I need to send it now because that's just the kind of person I am. Is it okay to send it via a phone? Obviously you don't want to because it doesn't show your voice as best as it can be, but how do you feel about people sending stuff through phones if...

    19:46

    you know, the opportunity arises. It's absolutely fine. As long as it's labeled, if it's just called audio one, that's really annoying because I can't find out who it is. So as long as it's labeled correctly, I don't care if it's a phone recording because I don't want to exclude somebody that hasn't got a big, you know, home set up or any home set up at all. You know.

    20:14

    It's very important that everyone should have the equal opportunity to be casting something regardless of the equipment that they cannot or cannot afford and the location they find themselves in. What don't you want to hear in an audition? I was going to say lies. Somebody who's sort of...

    20:43

    pretending to be something they're not and either, you know, B could be a character. Like if I, if I put out an audition for a, something that sounds in their late teens, early twenties, and I get a read back from somebody who is obviously in their, in their fifties and their voice sounds like it. It's just like, come on. There's, there's a great part. Yeah. So

    21:13

    that is almost a waste of their time, putting themselves forward for everything. It's just like, choose the roles that resonate with you because they're the ones that the casting director is gonna believe in, is gonna believe you. And it's that truth and honesty that's always gonna come through in a performance, always. And I'd rather have...

    21:40

    have a choice, a strong choice of the character and the read and what have you, than something which is just generally bland and won't make anybody unhappy. So I want a strong choice that I want to feel something. So don't be bland, I think. Don't be bland, don't lie. And also label your files correctly. Just so we can find you.

    22:08

    casting directors, we're always just looking around and mentally just sort of banking people that you sort of you always poking around websites if somebody sends through a link, you know, I'll have a listen. And it's just like, yeah, that'll be good for a character like this. And then the you know, it's the fright of losing, losing that and going like, Oh my god, there was somebody like, I thought I heard five years ago, that will be brilliant for this. So you go

    22:37

    thing. And some and sometimes it can be, you know, when I was doing that first pass on that character, I found that brilliant person and now I can't find them again, that sort of thing. So we have to make notes. So anything that sends through it has to be labeled correctly so we can find it. Yeah, talking about voices, like, what are you looking for nine voices, because you must have heard thousands of voices, and a lot of them do sound like that.

    23:03

    given, you know, a lot of jobs are going to be similar for the most part, but what makes you think, oh, I might need that voice in the future or that voice is different, you know, what are you looking for these days? It varies job to job and it depends what the broadcasters are looking for. And sometimes what the broadcaster and the production company, well, two very different things, what the production company is looking for and what the broadcasters are looking for might be very different things.

    23:30

    the and what the production company starts to look for and end up wanting can be very, very different things. So, you know, you're always looking for versatility and you're always looking for truth in the performance. Generally, the sort of three C's I'm always looking for is character, strong character, comedy and consistency. Not being able to

    24:00

    problem. There's some actors that might just produce something which is brilliant and then they can't quite do it again. And that tends, as I say, some actors, that will normally be people that haven't been trained in acting. Because it's interesting, you hear when you work with some people that are just very used to lots of screen acting.

    24:26

    in particular, because they used to hit in marks and doing the same thing over and over and over again, is really interesting. You give them a note and they will address that note and everything else will say exactly the same because that's what you've asked to change. Whereas sometimes you find with less experienced actors, you give a note and they'll change that but a lot of other stuff will change as well. Which means that you can't, you know, cut between and stuff like that.

    24:54

    It depends upon the job. It really depends upon the job versus Hennity is always good. And those, and those three, three C's is always good. And when, when you meet the person, because my, you know, my aim is never to cast without meeting someone because you're working with them for, you know, quite an extended period of time, especially on animation, it will be nine to 12 to 18 months, and if it goes multiple series, it can be years, absolutely years, you've got to like the person.

    25:23

    as well. And they've got to be and they've got to be a team player, you know, they've got to work as an ensemble, especially in animation, you've got to sort of, you know, gel with the other people. So you gotta be nice. Nice people get more work. They really do. Yeah, it actually that's everything. So we've got

    25:53

    Auditions in person, how do they differ to recorded auditions? No, what happens normally nowadays is that the first process is the self-tape and that self-tape gets you in the room. Um, not always, sometimes it's just straight audition in person and you do the trill and you find the people and you get them in. They, the audition in person.

    26:21

    I much prefer, and I think that's the proper way to audition. Um, and it just becomes a collaborative process. You're working with the actor to produce something, which is, you know, what every actor presumably wants. They don't want to be just in their, in their box, home alone, giving out lines. Um, a good, a good example is that I brought in an actor to read for a part for a series. Um, he read the part great. And we thought.

    26:50

    Hold on, he could be good for this other role as well. We're really short of time, gave him the size, said take a couple of minutes to read those and we'll talk to you about the character as you're reading them. So he's just taking in all of this information. And his first read is just like, yes, brilliant. You know, for a first read, you've nailed that so much. And he got the role, which was nice for him and did a great job on it. So...

    27:17

    If he if we were just doing on submissions, that opportunity probably wouldn't have have arisen because there wouldn't have been that immediacy of like, Oh, hey, try this. Just because you're bouncing stuff around. And also, there's when you when you're when you're when you're doing it, just directing yourself, you're just trying to second guess all of these people. And that's all I'm trying to do as well. I'm just trying to second guess

    27:46

    all of the people that may or may not be in the room. So they go, oh yeah, that's what I hadn't thought of, but really, really want. And if you're in the room with more people doing that, you can read, you can read what's going on. And also as the thing progresses, as the casting day progresses, we're finding out how the show is gonna sound. And we're sort of putting the casting together in our heads immediately.

    28:15

    of going like that person could be good for that. That means that that character needs to be like this. Okay, they're excellent, but that makes the character older. That doesn't matter, because we'll just make that character older and make them deal with that or younger or whatever. Yeah. So, you know, immediately your, somebody will come in and give a read and go, okay, I love, you know, you could say, I love your read, but that character is crossing over with another character. So if I can change you like this, then that will fit in with that character.

    28:45

    So which is why all of that stuff you can't do if it's just remote. In person, you get more opportunities from both sides. Yeah, so in theory, a good casting director is working with you and not against you. Always. Because you're going to best for the actor to see if they can fill a space. You might not even knew existed before. And also it makes your life easier because.

    29:09

    it's kind of unlocking doors at the same time, you know? Totally, totally, totally. Yes. Now that you say, you're always working with the actor. And for, you know, the casting director, voice director, the, you know, the best, the best thing at the end of a casting day is that the client turns around to you and just goes, I'm really, really confused. I've got so many, so many choices for so many characters. I don't know who to cast. That's the best thing. It's like brilliant. But, you know,

    29:39

    The worst thing is if they go like, okay, well, we might have one voice now, so let's carry on trying. And sometimes that does happen, especially if you're casting a really, really difficult character, and you just carry on trying. So, you know, knowing that the actors are leaving, having had a good time, you've also laughed a lot because you enjoy working with the actors, the clients enjoyed the whole experience.

    30:05

    because it's been a nice collaborative experience, which is what making stuff generally is, especially in TV, rarely you're sitting on your own making stuff. Do actor's resumes count for anything? They do sometimes. In US casting, they like to see what you've done, more so than UK casting.

    30:33

    Yeah, I just they do they do sometimes the USN census of put a little bit more emphasis on well, what have they done? Which can be important cannot be important. It's with with children. It's quite interesting because Acting's hard, you know, and if you're if you're in a booth, obviously if you're charging the bill You won't be a session won't be longer than three hours really But that's a lot of concentration so

    31:01

    Knowing that they've done say stage work and stuff like that means that they can consistently Work at that job and be fine working at that job Whereas if they might not have done anything before They might come to me. They might actually just get a bit bored and not to be suitable for the role after a couple of episodes for for adults sometimes broadcasters, it's Useful for them to know

    31:31

    what they've done. And sometimes they like to know for publicity purposes and things like that. So it can be important to some people and not to others. I don't really care. As long as you can act and you're funny. That's all I care about. And you're nice. And the last question I have today, you kind of answered this throughout the chat, but do you keep a voice list? And I think you said you do,

    32:02

    How do you feel about people contacting you directly, sending you demos, et cetera? I sort of do keep a voice list. It's because we're generally quite busy. It's not immensely organized. I use sort of as a cast director that the subscription I pay for for Spotlight allows me to sort of make lists and sort of categorize things quite easily. So I use that if the person is on Spotlight. So I use that as a sort of reminder tool.

    32:32

    And I also make sure that all the information is up to date as well, which is quite useful. It is fine for people to email me directly. People email me directly all the time. It sometimes takes me a while to get back to people like a year, but I do listen to everything that somebody sends through just so I can actually reply rather than just going like, thank you. I will listen. So as always, thank you. I have this and if anything suitable comes in, I will get in touch.

    33:00

    But it's only if anything suitable comes in. So somebody can say, oh, but I've emailed you four times and you haven't called me in for a casting. It's like, well, there might not have been a role suitable. And also because we're tending to cast a show, record a show, cast a show, record a show, obviously everything overlapping multiple times. So we may do six castings a year, we might do 10. Sometimes they might be really, really focused.

    33:28

    that we're looking for a particular ethnicity, we're looking for a particular accent. So if you've emailed and you're not, you know, you don't fit into one of those categories, you know, I'm not gonna get you in because there's no point. Sometimes we have jobs where we can more or less have carte blanche about who we cast. Particularly, sometimes walla groups are useful that I just say.

    33:56

    Okay, I'm just gonna get six people in that, you know, I think will be good. And then that's also a chance for me to get to know some people as well. That normally sort of mix up people that I know have good experience within doing that sort of work and people will have less experience. But that's a very useful, another useful thing of work to do. Well, David, that's the end of my questions today. Thank you for

    34:21

    getting this done. I look forward to seeing what you put out in the future. Yeah, we're looking forward to it as well. See what comes in. There's a few things that are in discussions about so hopefully some of those.

    34:40

    Now what did I take away from today's conversation?

    34:45

    Research for brief. Do as much as you can on the character at hand and what is being asked of you. It's very easy to overlook a small detail, but that detail could be the difference between landing the role and not. Make sure you are labeling your auditions correctly. This is important, not only for the role you are going for, but...

    35:09

    Also in the future, if the casting director wants to find an older audition to cast you for a potential future role, don't audition for something that isn't you. If you're a 25 year old man and you're auditioning for a 10 year old kid, stop. Authenticity and representation are always priority to casting directors, and they're always looking for specific casting for the majority of the time. And finally, be quick.

    35:39

    The sooner you get your auditions in, the better chance you have of being seen. It's a first come first serve game, so give yourself the best chance of landing the role before the deadline.

    35:54

    Thank you, Jack, Catherine, and of course the amazing David for joining me today and making this adventure possible. As always, I will include everyone's info in the show notes below. I'm about to go, but before I do, always make sure you're following the podcast so you don't miss an episode. Thanks for listening, and until next adventure, bye-bye.

  • 00:03

    Hello Voices, my name is Joe Troy and I'm a multi award winning voice over and host of a voice overs audio adventure podcast. A bi-weekly show where I learn about the voice over and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    00:25

    Welcome to another episode. Last episode we spoke about casting and how you should audition for them. This week we are going to elaborate further by speaking to one of, if not the most popular casting sites out there. Today's adventure is about Spotlight. Spotlight has been home of casting, supporting performers with roles in theater, television and film productions since 1927.

    00:52

    and now we're turning their attention to the voiceover industry. I got to speak with Matt Hood, who joined Spotlight as Managing Director in 2021 and has over 20 years experience in the performing arts sector, including at Equity, the UK trade union for professional performers. I wanted to know more about Spotlight in general, the changes Spotlight will be making to their platform to support voice actors and tips on how to get the most out of the platform.

    01:23

    Let's go!

    01:27

    My name is Matt Hood. I am the managing director of Spotlight. Spotlight has been around since 1927 and we started as a directory service for actors where you could advertise your availability for work, the fact you're looking for work and your various skills in a hard copy printed directory. And we launched that as the first in the world in 1927, as I said. And we'd be going, doing pretty much the same thing ever since. It's the best place if you're working.

    01:55

    as a performer of any sort in the profession to list yourself and be found for work. And you know, through doing this job as an organisation for almost 100 years, we've helped introduce some of the best performers on screen, on stage, on radio around the world to jobs and you know, through that help them develop their careers. What professionals would use it? Like what kind of professional would use it in terms of you said actors, but

    02:25

    what other people will be searching for actors on your platform. So on one side, we've got the performers, the talented performers that have profiles on Spotlight, actors as said, also voice performers as well, dancers and some other performing professions. And on the other side, we have the people who are looking to hire those talented performers. So largely casting directors, they've been using Spotlight directories since

    02:53

    foundation in the 1920s, but other people who also are looking to cast talent. So in the voice world where jobs aren't always cast through casting directors, then sometimes the producers will be casting directly as well. Largely though, we're a platform for casting professionals. The other group of individuals who use Spotlight services are agents who are essentially using the platform on behalf of the performers, on behalf of the talent.

    03:22

    keep profiles up to date and manage any inbound requests for people looking for the talent for their productions. And what kind of production companies are we talking mainly bigger companies or smaller companies that would look for talent on Spotlight? What's great about Spotlight is it literally is everything. So yes, the kind of big film and television casting directors will be using Spotlight. So will people casting stage everything from

    03:50

    the West End to regional touring theatre. But also we're really aware that as a performer, every paid opportunity that's paid properly is valuable and worth seeing. And we don't want to control what performers see, we want to give the most opportunities, visibility to the most amount of opportunities possible. So as long as it's paid, we don't do free work, we don't do expenses only work, it has to be legitimate paid work.

    04:19

    But if they are looking for professional performers for that paid work, then we try and encourage those jobs to use Spotlight services to find the talent that they require. Now, part of the reason we talk today is about the new VO function that is on Spotlight. From personal experience as a VO, I found it difficult to navigate Spotlight as a VO. One of those platforms that I didn't really use, so it was really refreshing to hear that you were

    04:48

    spending a bit more time focusing on the VR side of things. Would you like to share some light on to why that was the case and just more about the function itself? Yeah, I think, you know, Spotlight's grown up in a very traditional acting background, looking at film, television, stage and radio plays have traditionally been cast using Spotlight services as well. But that very specific skill set of voice wasn't really catered for.

    05:18

    by the Spotlight platform. I have a real interest in voice myself. It's what I wanted to do when I was a student. I always wanted to kind of move into the voice world and things took me in different directions, but I've always had a real kind of passion for voice performance. And so when I joined three years ago and we were auditing what provisions we had for different skills sectors in the industry, it was clear that we didn't have the right tooling for voice actors or for those casting.

    05:48

    voice productions and they don't cast in the same way as, you know, acting on stage or on the screen. There are different things that voice performers need to be able to demonstrate as their skills. There are different things that those hiring voice performers need to see in order to find the right voice talent for their production. So that's what we've focused on in the last few years is going, well, what are the requirements for voice performers and voice casters that we're lacking?

    06:17

    And how do we bring those onto the Spotlight platform? So, you know, making sure we've got a new skill section for voice performers that really helps them detail in more granularity the skills that they perform when undertaking voice work, being able to, for voice casters, to actually search people with voice reels and be able to play those very easily, straight from the profile. So, you know, there's no point if you're casting for voice.

    06:44

    looking through loads of talents that do not have sound clips on, they're just not going to be able to find talent you want if you can't hear them. So enabling people to have those voice clips readily available for voice casters to hear and for those people casting voices to just be able to play them pretty much instantly without having to go through loads of in-depth processes on the site. It's really important for us. We also want to make sure that

    07:11

    for people who are looking for a voice agent, those voice agents can find talent looking for voice representation, just the same way that voice casters can find voice talent looking to work on their productions. So a lot of it's just been about making sure that those audio skills are more easily accessible, that audio media is more easily accessible on both sides, just so that that process of voice casting can happen much more seamlessly. So it works both ways. It's not just for the...

    07:39

    casting to look for talent is also for the talent to look for casting as well. Is that correct? The way that casting directors and other professionals can advertise jobs does vary. Around 50% of what of the opportunities that people put out via Spotlight are done through search. So half of them, people will go, well, I'm looking for these six performers, one performer for a production and kind of advertise that role publicly.

    08:07

    either to all the talent on the site, to some of the talent, just to agents only, that's up to the casting professionals to decide. But the other 50% of the way in which those casting professionals find performers is just by searching and filtering the database. So again, I need somebody who can speak this language, who has this accent as a native. I wanna see people who just have voice reels because that's what I want to hear.

    08:31

    And so it's really important that the spotlight performers, whatever their background, are keeping their profiles up to date. Cause that's what those casting professionals are looking for and searching and creating shortlists based on. And they may go, look, I found these six people, they look ideal and they'll show their producer, those six people, those six voice reels and the producers and the casting professionals work together to determine who they might want to bring into the room physically, virtually, or whatever it is. So it's really important that it isn't.

    09:01

    It isn't just emails going out with jobs advertised on from casting professionals. It's, there are many ways in which they're looking for talent on the spotlight side. If you were predominantly a voice actor versus an on-screen actor, and you wanted to create a spotlight account, could you do that or would you need to have an acting side and a voiceover side to be noticed? No, I mean, historically.

    09:29

    The latter would have been the case. So if you wanted to look for voice, but you had to qualify for spotlight as an actor, um, in the first place, again, we've, we've changed our criteria so that you can join spotlight just with voice credits and you may just be looking for voice work at the same time, or you may want to expand as a voice performer, your opportunities and look for work in, in acting as well. Our job is not to, to gatekeep. Our job is not to keep people out of.

    09:58

    profession at all. Our job is to facilitate people looking for work and to facilitate those people looking to hire talent and not to kind of be a, yeah, a block in the way. So if you've got voice, paid voice credits already, then you can join Spotlight with just two credits. They can be voice only, they could be acting only, they could be a mixture of the two. And then you can choose what sorts of jobs you want to look for once you're registered on the site. Does the casting process differ for voice?

    10:28

    versus a traditional acting casting. Yeah, I mean, I think that historically for acting casting, your kind of thumbnail headshot has been, you know, your calling card. And so, you know, people casting for visual media have tended to kind of create short lists of those headshots and have them as almost a gallery of people that they're considering for productions. That's not relevant for voice casting. And so what really is so key is that, as I said earlier, that ability to

    10:58

    to find an easy listen to those voice clips and also to search and filter based on the sorts of things you want, whether you want some with a warm engaging voice or whether you want somebody who's got a, can they do a convincing kind of scared timbre to their voice. So there are so many different things that voice casting professionals are looking for that we didn't have before we're beginning to introduce. And they said, that was where we certainly saw a deficiency

    11:26

    in those kind of really specific voice areas that we wanted to correct. Is it something that you can tailor to yourself or is it very rigid in terms of, you know, you have to, like you said, we need a scary voice or for example, if I've done a specific accent or a specific kind of voice, could I label it in any way that I see fit or, you know, how would that work? I mean, in order to make the searching process as efficient as possible, we do need to create some kinds of framework. Yeah.

    11:55

    Otherwise you're really relying on the casting professional having exactly the same phraseology as you do, which if you're creating it individually, each time can be quite difficult. Yeah. You know, we are, we'd like to create a mixture of those set parameters, but also to have free text fields where people can add things that we're missing and we can add them into the kind of the facet list. You know, we're, we're really, we're, we're rolling out a whole project on ethnicity and heritage this quarter to allow.

    12:24

    our performers to really specify how they identify themselves in terms of their ethnicity and heritage in a way that is as granular as they wish to do so or as wide as they wish to do so. And I think the same applies to voices and accents. Thinking that we can ever create a complete list, a done list of all the voices and accents is as far-fetched as being able to create a complete list of ethnicity and heritage. So...

    12:53

    So we want to make sure that whilst we have these lists, which people can search and filter by that we're always listening to see what other ones we can add to help both people identify themselves and their skills, but also to help casting work much more smoothly as well. What would you say were do's and don'ts to creating a profile? Like what profiles have you seen and you're like, Oh my God, are they serious? Versus that's a really good one.

    13:19

    I'm sure you see them all, so. Yeah. Don't lie. It's probably the number one tip. The number of people I've seen who've put skills down they don't have, whether it's horse riding or driving cars or accents they haven't mastered. I mean, that nobody wins from that. You get into a voice booth or you get onto a studio and someone says, well, can you do this? And the answer is no, you can't. The whole production is thrown into disarray. So I think number one is, yeah, just.

    13:49

    make sure you're telling the truth, make sure it's your truth that you're telling. Also, just keep it up to date. I mean, headshots notoriously in the past, people weren't updating and then you'd turn up and people go, you don't look like that. Less of an issue, perhaps in voice casting, but making sure that you're keeping your agent up to date, keeping all your skills or your credits up to date. Particularly credits, I think, because people really want to see that

    14:18

    listed the two jobs you listed to join Spotlight with, and not the 14 you've done in the past year, then people are gonna look at your profile and go, well, I can't see the track record of the work that they've undertaken. So keeping that up to date is really important just to enhance your credibility as a performer. So you see the back end of, obviously you see everything that's happening on the platform. How often do you see, West specifically,

    14:48

    coming and going, because you might say it influxes, okay, we want a Northern, like a Northern accent for like six months, for example. Like how often do you see trends changing? It's a kind of longer term picture, I think, in terms of trying to understand trends. I mean, the biggest one, I think, has been around authenticity over the last few years. And that, I think, applies as much to voice as it has done to other portrayals. And in fact, it's perhaps been one of the areas where

    15:17

    voices had to catch up more because portraying something you're clearly not visually has not been acceptable for a while. But you've seen the trend, you see how the reaction to some of the characters in The Simpsons, for example, over the last decade has changed. That authenticity in voice has been something that we've noticed much more being the case. That's interesting because as an actor, as a performer, as a voice performer, your ability to do

    15:46

    many accents and many voice types and betray many characters is part of your skillset. Yes. But we've certainly seen where a trend in people looking for you to be you and not to be somebody else in voice perhaps more than any other area. So that I think is definitely one of the trends that we've seen. I think the other one is interestingly in voice, there is

    16:15

    With the rise of AI and the ability for AI to take over some of the roles in voice, which I think is alarming to all of us, the line between voiceover and voice acting has become much more important for casting professionals. And wanting to better see how you perform with your voice and not just read in a nice voice is becoming more important. So the

    16:42

    acting and voice performing are becoming more blurred. And I think that works in, in, in favor for both actors and for people who may have historically seen themselves as, as voice performers only. And, you know, and hopefully that means there's more opportunity whilst we all kind of look at this threat of AI and what it means for our industry in general. And you know, that's a big unresolved question still. Yeah. I definitely see the need.

    17:11

    for different accents in some aspects. Like for example, if you're playing an ensemble role or something like that. But definitely for the more commercial stuff, I see the authenticity being used a lot more because they don't need you to do a million accents. They just need you to be you. So I definitely see the good and the bad side, but I think ultimately it just comes down to budget at the end of the day for most people. And that's unfortunate. It's interesting if you're doing an audio book, which is one of those other boom areas

    17:41

    voice work over the last 10 years. You know, what distinguishes an audio book from a radio play is that you have a single narrator who does all the characters. Whereas in a radio play, you have different actors for each of the characters. So you do want someone to read it, who can talk in the voices of all the different people in the book. How that's achieved in a sensitive and appropriate way is part of the, the, the art of the craft of audio books. Okay.

    18:11

    One more question before we leave. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about in terms of Spotlight or the VO functions or just work that's coming up in the next few months? So there's a couple of things. And one is we're kind of launching a three month free offer for voice performers who are returning to Spotlight, maybe after having taken a break or new for the first time now we're expanding our voice work. I think the code is SLVOLaunch23.

    18:38

    but that's available for the next six months for people who want to come and check out the work we're doing for voice and, and to rejoin or join the platform for the first time. The second bit is, you know, we're doing more. One of the great things about Spolet is the amount of stuff we do away from just being a software platform and the ability to kind of run events and other things that help people in building their career, both from a performer point of view, but also from casting and agents as well. And we've got a number of different

    19:08

    voice related workshops and online activities coming up from, you know, accent work to kind of things like laying the imposter syndrome to rest. So we'd have a health and wellbeing program focused on kind of mental resilience in the profession as well. So, you know, I think those which we advertise on our website are really important for welfare, for what are essentially people act as performers are often working alone and often in between jobs as well.

    19:38

    And we're really sensitive to what that means for performers and how we can help in that general career development side, as well as just, you know, the jobs part of the platform as well. So yeah, a lot more of that for voice performers will be coming up through the year. And I can follow all of that through social media and website, I would imagine. Yeah, spotlight.com, spotlight UK on the social media channels.

    20:07

    Although one of the things we'll be doing this year is probably changing that Spotlight UK to be more reflective of the UK and Ireland, where lots of Irish performers are part of Spotlights as well. So otherwise, that's the current social media handle. Matt, thank you for your time today. I'm really excited to see what Spotlights have coming and I will definitely be using Spotlight in the next few months to check out any features. So thank you for your time, sir. No problem at all. Thanks for having me on.

    20:40

    So what did I learn from today's conversation? If you're a voiceover and you want to be on Spotlight, you now can. You no longer need to have onscreen credits to be a part of it. As long as you have two paid jobs, go ahead and apply.

    21:00

    Remember to keep your profile up to date and make sure you are showing your latest work. People that are actively working will always look more appealing, so bear that in mind. And finally, a reoccurring theme over the last couple episodes and to be honest in life, be you. Don't try to be something you are not. Authenticity is key and people will see right through a lie. You got this everyone. Good luck.

    21:37

    The wonderful people at Spotlight have been so kind to offer 3 months free for voice over artists joining Spotlight. This is for new members, all those returning from at least 6 months hiatus. All you have to do is use the code SLVOLaunch23 at checkout to activate. So head over to Spotlight.com and create your account. Remember...

    22:06

    They have a lot of additional webinars, workshops and just downright useful info. So if you just want to check that out, then go ahead and have a peek.

    22:18

    Thank you Matt and Spotlight for answering all my questions and taking time out to be a part of this episode. These changes are the big win for the voice acting community, so make sure you check it out. And there we go, another adventure done. We're flying through them really quick and we're nearly done with the third season. Make sure you're following the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And until next time, as always, bye bye.

  • 00:03

    Hello Voices, my name is Joe Troy and I'm a multi award winning voice over and host of a voice overs audio adventure podcast. A bi-weekly show where I learn about the voice over and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    00:27

    Hello everyone and welcome to another episode. Before we get started, I just wanted to let you all know that I might sound a little bit different in this episode, but that's because I am sick. But as you know, the show goes on and that's what I'm about to do. As you know, I like to cover as many specialties as possible in this podcast. Sometimes you may be thinking, is this relevant? But trust me, there's always a method behind my madness and today is no different.

    00:55

    Today, I want to learn more about how I say what I say and why I deliver scripts and the psychology behind them. That was a lot. Anyway, today's adventure is about the wonderful world of copywriting. Without copywriters, what would my job look like? Every day I get scripts sent to me with directions on how to perform them in order to sell, promote, or inform.

    01:26

    The art of writing a script to fit a time limit to get all the required information in is definitely an art. But there's so much power in words. And not all scripts are created equally. I don't know much about this area from the standpoint of a copywriter, because I'm not one. But I do want to learn more. And of course, I have reached out to some talented individuals to see if they can give some insight. And let's get talking to the first one.

    02:00

    Okay, so this is Andrew Bolton recording the answers to the questions for Joe's podcast. So I've been a copywriter for about 12-ish years. It's the only job I've ever done and it's sort of saved me from having to go into what you would call a grown-up profession and I'm very, very grateful for that. So I started off working at In-House at Egg, the credit card company. My first ever copywriting job in their internal agency, which was a huge amount of fun.

    02:27

    Moved on to sort of various other agencies and done a lot of kind of freelance stuff over my career. Worked with some really big brands, worked with some really, really tiny brands that you've probably never heard of and got a lot of kind of satisfaction and sort of joy of doing both kinds of work. I taught copywriting at the fantastic University of Lincoln Creative Advertising course, in my very biased opinion, the best advertising course in the country. And I've written a couple of books. I wrote a book on copywriting called, Copywriting Is.

    02:57

    30 or so thoughts on thinking like a copywriter, which was published by the wonderful Gasp Books. And I also, with my friend Giles Edwards, I wrote a book called Adele Writes an Ad, which is about a child who helps her dad who's a copywriter when he gets writer's block and she writes a fantastic ad for him. What makes a good copywriter, in your opinion? I suppose it's a really difficult thing to sort of define, but one thing that's always struck me is being a real asset, the sort of thing that makes a difference.

    03:27

    between a great copywriter and sort of a good one, is this ability to take those very familiar messages, those messages that have probably been expressed to an audience lots and lots of times before, and just to say it in a different way, to come up with a new and surprising way to kind of express these old thoughts. And I think it's just a mastery of voice really, the ability to kind of write something in a way that people can hear that voice in their head, and they find it engaging, and they find it warm, and they find it charming, and they find it trustworthy.

    03:55

    whatever that kind of quality might be, something that you can put into the written word that actually manages to kind of penetrate the brain to kind of get past the autopilot that our brains are on these days because we're bombarded with so much stuff. So I think it's those two things, the ability to kind of find that new way of expression and also to kind of write in a way that people respond to. So if.

    04:19

    If I was kind of giving advice to someone who wanted to become a copywriter, and I spent years doing this at sort of the University of Lincoln, training young writers and sort of, you know, equipping them to go out into the industry and start their career as copywriters. I think there were lots and lots of different things you kind of need to be doing, and I probably can't cover them all here, but the one I would focus on is the temptation with learning how to be a copywriter is to only ever...

    04:44

    learn or fill your brain with inspiration from the world of copywriting. Going out and reading, you know, great ads from great copywriters of the past and the present and there's nothing wrong with that. That's really, really valuable and useful and essential. But you can't draw a line there. You can't only sort of limit yourself to learning copywriting from copywriters. It will make you a very limited writer out in the industry. And there's so many other things you can kind of go and learn from. Go and learn from literature or poetry or playwriting.

    05:10

    or listening to kind of conversations of people on the bus or in pubs, there's lots of other sources of inspiration for kind of creative language and creative communication. So make sure you expand your horizons and look way beyond the worlds of advertising and marketing and you can take some of those lessons and bring them back into your job. And that's it, that's a wrap. Cheerio.

    05:32

    Thanks, Andrew. Some amazing hot takes from that. Let's make it we want to know more. And that we are gonna do. Next up, I'll be speaking to Sharon Araya, another talented copywriter. I wanted to ask his thoughts on what it takes to be a good copywriter, ways for people to enter the industry and more.

    05:57

    So I'm Shelm, I am a copywriter, and I'm also just more generally a writer. I work as an executive editor for a print publication called Goucher World as well. Okay. And then, yeah, I like just do lots of like freelance work with loads of different clients, a lot of like copy stuff, and then sometimes it's like more wider creative, sometimes it's strategy. But I think copy is definitely where I've always like been

    06:27

    I then captured. Yeah. So, so, so what made you get into copywriting? And what was your journey in a nutshell? Because I know it's a long story, obviously, but if you can compile it. Yeah. Yeah. Long story short, basically, when I was about, I think, 17 or 18, I got into sports modeling just completely by chance. And one job I was on, it was like this short commercial in Madrid.

    06:56

    And I remember, like, obviously you look around and you see like all the people who are in the crew and they all usually look a certain way. But there was one guy and he just looked super cool. Like he had Yeezys on. This was way back as well. He had Yeezy like V1s. And like he was just this American guy, black guy. And was just like really cool. So we kind of got speaking and I was like, oh yeah, like, you know, like what's your job like on this set? Cause there's so many people. And I did.

    07:25

    understand anything I was just trying to get. Yeah, I was just trying to get an understanding of like what everyone did. And he was like, oh, I'm a copyrights. I was like, okay, so you make sure everything's like legally okay. And he was like, hell no. He was like, my job is that the brand came to me with a brief. We sent over an idea and I wrote the script and I was like, sick, like that's something I would love to do. So I remember going back to London. I was at uni at this time and I just started like telling people.

    07:54

    that I wanted to be a copywriter or I was telling him I am a copywriter. Like that was where it started, I guess. And before I knew it, someone was like, oh yeah, cool. All right, fine. Well, you know, we've got this brief. It feels like, cause it was an Arsenal brief. It was like, it felt like it was in my realm. I'm an Arsenal fan. They were like, yeah, like, you know, we'd love for your help on it. And yeah, things, I guess have just kind of grown since then. Wow. And when you said you spoke to this person at this shoot,

    08:22

    What did you take away from that conversation? Like what did you tell yourself you needed to work on to get jobs like that? I think for me, the most important thing that I took was genuinely that this thing was real. Like I didn't realize that unless you were like an author or something, yeah, I just thought if, unless you're an author, you can't write stuff and have it, and that's your job. Like just being able to write stuff and craft like words in a way that make people feel something.

    08:52

    think I didn't realize that that was a job that people could have. And it sounds silly now, but I know there's so many people that I think when you're not like, I always say like the creative industry is like Narnia. It's literally just a cupboard. Yeah. And then you open the cupboard and you're like, what? There's a job that everyone could do. And I think for me, that was the most important thing that started from that conversation, just actually being aware and understanding that this was a thing. Yeah.

    09:21

    Do you remember your first job? Um, it's funny cause I freelanced for a while before the pandemic. Um, so the first, like, I guess, yeah, the first, uh, freelance gig I got was with this agency, the pitch I was talking about, um, for like the Adidas arsenal kit. We didn't win, but it was really interesting to just see like the process of how things went through and I kind of stayed close to it, like all throughout. So it was really nice to be like brought on board, but then also get insight into not just.

    09:51

    like being like, oh, okay, cool. Here's all this stuff, write some stuff. It was also like, you know, looking at it from a strategic point of view and it's like, what, what, what does this mean and who, who's going to care and why. So like understanding that bit and then getting to the point where it was like, okay, cool. You have to write some stuff. And it was like, okay, I felt way more informed about what I was writing rather than just being like, okay, cool. Here's all this stuff. Now make it sound nice. I did your opinion. What is

    10:19

    a good copywriter to you? I feel like for me, it's just, it's telling stories. So I think you have to be a good storyteller. I think it's the first thing. And I think being a good storyteller is like, you're able to like inject drama into people or into situations and make people care or make people feel something at least. They might not even care. They might like hate what they've seen or what they've read. But I think the most important thing is that people feel something towards it. And I think that also cut back.

    10:49

    is important because it comes down to being human. And like, actually, I think a lot of the times where I think it can get very technical and very like, oh, this and that. At the end of the day, you're speaking to somebody who doesn't even know who you are, who doesn't really care what you do. You're trying to get a message across to them. So it's like, if you are walking past them in the street, it's like, what would you say? Because that's, that's what a billboard is. It's not, you know, I mean, no one has the context. It's

    11:19

    some words on a thing and it's like, even if, I think for me it's like, it's not even trying to always get like a full message across. Sometimes it's just like evoking the reaction and being, you know, like someone walks past a billboard, looks at it for like two seconds and then they're like, oh, that's kind of funny. And then they go on about their day, they don't even remember it for the rest of their life. But I think that that's so important to me because it's like, that's kind of your job just to make people feel something towards something.

    11:46

    which is really important. And I think that comes down from, yeah, just like really understanding what it is that makes humans feel things, I think is the most important thing. And then like speaking from that. So what is the process of your job? Like at what point do you get involved? You know, you spoke briefly about pitching ideas to clients and so forth. But what is the process between...

    12:12

    You know, if I was a company and I wanted a brand message or rebrand or something along those lines, like how do, how are you approached and what is the process? I think it varies to be fair. Like I think sometimes as I guess, like a copywriter, I also then am classed as a creative. So sometimes it's not just, okay, cool. Like put the words to things. Sometimes it's like, okay, like what is, I don't wanna say what is the meaning of this cause that sounds really deep, but it's almost like.

    12:42

    what does this all mean? What are we trying to do? And then the words can almost come after that. But there's been times where I've been brought onto briefs and it's literally like, everything's done. We just need this, this, this, this, this, this, this. And it's all words or it's like naming things or. And so I think, yeah, the process varies. And I think I enjoy it more when I'm more involved. The more I am involved in the process, I think the better job I'm able to do because I understand.

    13:10

    if it's a brand, where the brand is coming from and who they're trying to speak to. And if I'm involved in those conversations, I think it just feels a bit more organic, what I'm able to, I guess I produce. Are there any industries or types of brands that you stay away from or have had bad experiences with where you wouldn't go back with them? Obviously you don't have to name specific brands, but is there any? Yeah, no, of course. Just be like, yeah, this brand, cancel them. Nah, nah.

    13:39

    For me, luckily, I think most, all of my experience, I would even say, I've been really positive. And I think it's also one thing I guess I'm blessed with is not being from this creative world. Like my parents don't really know what I do and stuff. So for me, I almost, even when things get tough and I'm just like, no one's gonna die whether this goes right or wrong. I mean, at the end of the day, so it's like, I can do my best, I can.

    14:08

    you know, try and push a client maybe in a direction that they're a bit nervous or scared to go to. But it's like, at the end of the day, I'm just doing my best. And yeah, I did like, you know, unfortunately, like this, this stuff is very important, I think. But it's not it's not, no, it's not life or death, which I think it just allows me to kind of like be like, okay, cool, just like take, take a step away, take perspective and be like, okay, cool, you know.

    14:35

    things are going to be fine. And like, I just, I guess I have a trust in myself and my ability to like compose words that I'm like, I know I've done a good job on this. Whether someone else is able to see that or not is obviously a different story. But then it's like, there's also that bit where I'm like, okay, cool. If someone doesn't think something I've done is good and I think it's good. It's like, there must be something about it that they didn't understand. Therefore, maybe it's not as good as I thought it was because

    15:05

    that maybe I thought it was good from my perspective, but that person might be more like the person who's walking on the street and actually reads what is, or sees on a YouTube video, sees on wherever. So I think it's just really important to get a perspective. And I think every opinion is just super important as well because that's a real person once again, and we are effectively selling to real people.

    15:35

    on trend and relevant in what you do? Because the way people speak changes all the time. You know, there's new things that are in fashion, etc. How do you as a copywriter keep up to date with this stuff? And how do you, you know, stay relevant? I think for me, like, I just try and avoid trend or like relevance, because I think, I think when you try and like...

    16:03

    focus or change trends, then you're almost like behaving on a means to an end. If I feel, but for me, it's just like, there's, there's, I think with me, a lot of the things that I write, I'd say are like very simple. Um, they might have a little like nuance here and there, but most of the time it's like pretty simple stuff that anybody can understand. I'm not trying to, you know, like, yeah, I'm not trying to isolate anyone or, you know, make people feel that.

    16:32

    Oh, I need to be XYZ to understand this. I think usually it's quite simple. So I think I've not really had to worry about like trying to stick with trends and stuff. But I guess also being like Gen Z helps because I'm on Twitter. I'm on not really on TikTok, but I'm on Instagram. So I do see what people say and sometimes I'm like, okay, cool. Like, you know, it's like one specific brief, this thing that I've seen could potentially help inform this thing. But I think also it comes down to just speaking to people as well.

    17:02

    I know it sounds so simple, but just having conversations with people, speaking to people. Yeah. If something's like for a demographic, that's not you speaking to those people and understanding like some of the things they say, like, yeah, I remember I once had to do some like, we basically had a pitch. I don't know if I'm allowed to say her name or not, cause I don't remember. But it was for like a very big like supermodel superstar, whatever.

    17:30

    And part of the pitch was me like crying almost in her tone of voice, which I found really weird because she's like a American white lady, which is obviously not me. But what I did, I just watched those like so many YouTube videos. I like was looking through like Reddit posts and all sorts and I was like, okay, cool. There's like a lot of recurring like themes or recurring words or phrases that I'm seeing. So it's like using those to be like, hey, like I'm not.

    17:58

    this person, but I understand what this person says and what this person does and how they say things. So I think that's part of it as well. It's literally just actually becoming a consumer or a viewer of things as well. I think that's important. Definitely keeping an ear and an eye out. You're writing copyright for people, like you said, to communicate with them.

    18:26

    But when you become disconnected from that audience, that's when I think you can see a mile away. And that's the kind of, that's the kind, and it doesn't matter, it could be an age thing, could be a race, could be literally I live in London and somebody lives in Derby, but I don't know how they speak, you know, kind of thing. So I think just, yeah, like to reiterate what you said, just talking to people and your research, you know, that...

    18:55

    I think when you get to a certain stage, I think some people can get a bit too settled and thinking, I've been doing this for 10, 15 years, I know what I'm doing kind of thing. But yeah, it's important to talk to people and stay connected because... Yeah. And I think it's also just sense checking things as well. Like sometimes just like taking yourself away from something. I think sometimes when you're like looking at something day after day after day after day after day.

    19:24

    doesn't even look good or bad anymore. It just looks like it. But when you like take your take a bit of time away and look at it again, you're like, yeah, this isn't right. This doesn't make sense. We're like showing someone else and being like, yo, what'd you think of this? And they're like, yo, like no one says that. Or do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So I think, yeah, just a lot of that stuff is just, and I think, yeah, once again, like I said, like I'm blessed where I have friends who aren't in this industry or.

    19:53

    you know, because I think there's a lot that happens in like this creative industry. So sometimes like people's feedback comes from a point of understanding where you kind of sometimes want a viewpoint where people don't understand to just be like, straight up, if I saw this, wherever, this is how I would feel, rather than being like, Oh, I get it because it's here, then I know that, you know,

    20:20

    it might be longer, it might be shorter, or it might be... It's just like straight up, I don't like this, or straight up, oh yeah, this sounds good. And yeah, getting those kind of like unfiltered opinions, I think is also super important. Where do you see your job going in the next five to 10 years? I think like for me, I've always, even it's funny because I guess the title, copyright, it's something I've never really like...

    20:50

    I've not died on the hill of being a copywriter. I think for me, it's always been important to be like a storyteller. And I think that's like my most important thing. I just, I find it a bit cringe going to people, oh yeah, I'm a storyteller. Cause I just think that's like, do you think you're Moses or something? So I don't say that. Like I think it's a lot clearer to say, okay, cool. Like copywriter and writer. But I think for me, it's just about like telling stories. And that's why it's really important. And I think that's why like, I think my...

    21:18

    primary focus for the future is definitely with the magazine, with Gaucho World, and just continuing to tell stories of interesting people, I think is the most important thing, people who are on a path, who have a clear vision as well. And yeah, amplifying those stories, sharing them with our networks and beyond, and just helping people grow. And also not waiting as well, I think that's the thing, it's not waiting for them to...

    21:47

    get featured by X or get featured by Y, it's like, like you're really good at what you do. People might not recognize yet, but we do. So let's tell that story, you know? And that's like the most important thing. So I think that's kind of like where I see my, like I guess future, but then also like how I've, I always enjoy like, just doing things on the side, I think, is like has always been.

    22:15

    And my thing, I've never really been someone who's just like had a job and then not really doing much else. Like I even started a bowling club, which is like super random, but it's been really fun. Like I really like bowling. So now I go to bowling every Tuesday. Oh, I saw that. I saw that on your LinkedIn, I think. Yeah. And I was like, I said to my girlfriend, like I'm in exactly the same predicament. I don't drink, I don't do none of that. Why not? You know, like I think that's an amazing idea. Yeah. And I think like even that, like, yeah, that just.

    22:45

    came around, I was like, oh, okay, cool. Like I like going bowling. I don't really drink as well. And I was like, okay, maybe that's why I like bowling so much because there's not like a pressure to drink when you go bowling. Whereas I think if you go out or if you, there's a lot of it is centered around drinking as the experience. Whereas with bowling and I'm good at bowling as well. I think that's the thing we have to remember because I don't like doing things I'm not good at. So yeah, like I think that's been like super fun as well.

    23:15

    That's something that luckily has extended beyond like the crazy people I know. And there's normal people that come bowling and they're like, okay, cool. Yeah. Maybe you should have done this or maybe you should have done this. Like I joined the group and didn't realize this or, you know, you should have done. I'm like, okay, yeah, like this is the kind of stuff I really appreciate. But it's also just helping me understand. Like, yeah, behaviors of people and how people are like trying to build something.

    23:45

    that like serves, I guess, people, serves other interests and also gets them to like, basically spend their whole Tuesday evening with me, which I think is quite tough because it's Tuesday evening, like, ain't no one trying to, but people have come, so it's like, it's been really good. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's been really fun as well. And I think like, I definitely want to continue that and keep it growing. And even news like I've had thoughts about having that, even as like a storytelling platform.

    24:14

    enabling people not to only bowl, but also like, like tell different stories and like, cause I think there's a lot of pages on, ah, there's a page on Instagram, what's it called? It's called Strangers of New York or something like that. But they basically just take like random pictures of people and I think they ask them a question and they like, give a story and I think it's like super cool. And I'm like, wow, like, it's really nice to hear like stories from like normal people and also realize like how much we all are alike.

    24:44

    I think it's the most important thing that I really, really like want to. Even like, players' tribune do like a really good thing with footballers where they'll like tell a story of their past or how they got to the point. And it feels really raw, it feels really honest and I think it's like, it's just trying to yeah like have that in any kind of like documentation I have. It feels honest, it feels raw and people can be like, oh I actually relate to that. It might not be the same where like for example.

    25:12

    I'm not a professional footballer, but I can still relate to this story that this professional footballer has had. So I think, yeah, for me, that's kind of just the most important thing is just like, like building connections between people that might not have been connected, if not for what I might have done, which I think is something that's really important to me as well.

    25:39

    For anyone out there that's listening right now and they want to do what you're doing, what's one bit of advice you would give them?

    25:52

    What am I doing? That's the question. Nah, I'm joking. I think, like, for me, I think I've always just tried to just follow, like.

    26:04

    How I feel, be like super interested in stuff, be like super curious, I think is like a really important thing. And I think it's something that we kind of lose as we get older, because we get into a program where it's like, okay, cool, am I all right? My family all right? It's doing it, okay, cool. That's like, that's it. Whereas I don't think we, like even with the bowling club, I was a bit like, okay, cool. What if I start this bowling club and no one comes? And there's been times where no one came and I was like, okay, I went bowling by myself. It wasn't that bad. Do you know what I mean?

    26:34

    Before you know it, it's like, there's 15 people coming every week, 20 people coming every week, 25 people coming every week. And you're like, okay, cool. Like, you know, it was just that people weren't aware. It's not that it wasn't a good thing. And it's like, also, I wasn't posting anything about it. Like I was posting just on my stories, but it's like, okay, cool. Like now there's a separate Instagram and there's like a flyer. There's all these kinds of things that allow people to actually be aware of the, of it. So I think for me, yeah, it's just always been.

    27:03

    curious, trying stuff as well, like with the bowling club, it's like, oh, like, you know, why not? Like, why? I think just saying why not to things and trying things and doing what you can is with what you have. I think it's a super important thing as well. And not comparing yourself to people say it all the time, but it's like, there's so many things that we see. And it's like, there's so much that took to get it to where it is. But a lot of times you think it's that one person or

    27:32

    that one entity, but it's like just doing what you can with what you have. Looking, I think one thing as well, what I'll say is like Dean who founded Gouchoworld, who's like literally one of my closest friends, but like that was someone who I'd met in life and I thought he was doing something really cool and I was like, oh, here's how I can provide value to the thing that you're doing. And I think a lot of the times people are like, okay, when they think of the word network and they're like, hey, cool, I need to think of the person.

    28:03

    who's like the CEO of the biggest company or I need to find the head of this. And it was like, Dean was my friend who was doing something really interesting. And I was like, that's something I wanna be a part of. And like, I think we've both grown so much, like Gouchworld has grown so much, just from once again, like being curious and not looking like what's over there. It's almost like, what's right here? Like, what can I be a part of? What can I do? Like, what can I move forward?

    28:33

    And yeah, that's kind of just how our relationship has blossomed with me just being like, wow, this guy does really cool stuff. I wanna be a part of that, but what value can I also provide? And yeah, I think where he's definitely more visually inclined, and I've learned so much from him, from a visual perspective, I think I've been able to help with how things are looking words-wise. So.

    29:02

    Yeah, I think it's just a great partnership. But yeah, once again, I think that's the most important thing. For me, I think a lot of things have happened because I've just been able to identify people doing things that are really interesting to me that I literally know that I consider friends and being like, OK, cool. Like, how is it I'm able to help? Or how is it like I'm able to like share this or promote this? Or like even just like giving my sometimes unwarranted opinion on things just.

    29:31

    But being like, I'm only telling you this because I feel like this could help it be better. Um, so I think that's the advice I'd give really is like, don't focus on trying to network with people who are like way outside of your circle. Cause I think eventually once you start doing things in your little corner, all those people that you thought were like really far out of reach are now like, Oh, this is a really interesting thing.

    29:57

    the circle isn't actually that big as you think. And when you get into that circle, you realize how small it is. You know? And you just realize like you're like, also you just never know who's watching. You never know how far people are away. So it's just like, when you're doing stuff, it's just like, I think one thing as well is like re-importance, just do the things you love. Like just see you in things that you actually enjoy and you love because yeah, when it's not, you know. Yeah.

    30:25

    maybe not necessarily like doing as well as you want it to. You're still like, okay, cool. The satisfaction of getting out of this is that I love it. And everything else is just a bonus. That was like five tips. I know you said one thing, but.

    30:39

    Everything, everything is connected. I love it. The more the better. Everything, exactly. Well, sir, we made it happen. We did indeed. I'm thankful for your time. Thank you for having me. Thank you for everything. Anytime, and I see you doing great things. Likewise. So it's only right that I reached out. But yeah, thank you. And I wish you the best of luck in the future. And you. And yeah, we'll be in touch anyway. So take care. Thank you for having me, though. I appreciate it a lot.

    31:10

    So what did I take away from today's conversation? Connections with people are very important. Very important in different ways. One, to network and learn from others, but also to know and understand what people's needs are. And two, find out what people want to read, hear and see. And this can help you in tailoring your attention to certain directions. Take inspiration from different mediums, not just editorial.

    31:40

    The written editorial is not the origin of the idea, but the end goal. In order to be inspired in any creative field, you have to live. So why should copyrighting be any different? And finally, write, write, write, write, write, write. You get it, right? Create what you are passionate about. Create messages that mean something to you and that you are proud of.

    32:10

    Thank you Andrew and Shone for answering all my questions and taking time out to be part of this episode. Another adventure done and the penultimate episode to season three. As always, you know the drill, make sure you're following the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And until next time, until the last time, bye bye.

  • 00:03

    Hello Voices, my name is Joe Troy and I'm a multi award winning voice over and host of a voice overs audio adventure podcast. A bi-weekly show where I learn about the voice over and audio industry and share with you all the stories, tips and tricks along the way.

    00:26

    Welcome to another episode, the final episode of season 3. Today is going to be a fun one. Anime is Japan's answer to Western cartoons. It's been around as early as 1917. And although it's a Japanese export and can find a long history in the country, the rise of anime in the rest of the world over the last decade has grown at an amazing rate. In 2023,

    00:52

    According to Crunchyroll, one of the biggest streaming services of anime outside of Japan, over 800 million have shown some kind of interest in the genre besides USA, in countries like Brazil, France, Germany and Mexico. Because of this, more streaming services have acquired more IPs to feed the demand, meaning subtitles, which are still used of course, weren't going to be good enough on their own.

    01:22

    was a must. Today's adventure is about anime dubbing.

    01:29

    I know I've covered dubbing in two episodes talking about animation dubbing and dubbing for film, but no two niches are the same and all have their own pros and cons. Anime is very specific, has its own feel and look, so actors have to know about anime or be well versed in the culture in order to execute at the highest level. As always,

    01:54

    I've managed to find some amazing guests today to help me on this adventure to find out more. Let's get talking to the first guest.

    02:06

    Hi, I'm Elsie Lovelock. I'm a singer and voice actor. I've worked on a lot of video games and animations and I'm probably one of the few British voice actors who's gotten a chance to work on quite a few animes. Some of the ones I've worked on are Moriarty the Patriot, Suppose a Kid from the Last Dungeon Boonies Moved to a Starter Town, Island of Giant Insects, Memories, Hortensia Saga, Megatsu Warite's Earth, Ishida and Asakura, The Titans Bride,

    02:32

    Showtime and most recently I am going to be voicing Mimi in a redub of the Digimon movies with the original cast. There are quite a lot of misconceptions about anime dubbing. The most notable I'd say is how easy the broad masses think it is because it's so highly consumed and so popular. People have very strong opinions about anime dubs, voices and...

    03:00

    all this kind of thing, it can be quite polarizing, you know, sub or dub, all that kind of thing. And people forget that, you know, it is quite vocally taxing. You have to, you know, be good at dubbing. You have to be able to match mouth flaps. You have to be able to, you know, know when to come in. You do have three beeps before you say your line, but you also have to match or exceed the energy of the original Japanese dub.

    03:22

    And people just sort of think that all of this is kind of a walk in the park, and they think it's okay to sort of slander the voice actors who work on anime. So what I'd say to that is just remember that it can be a little bit more challenging than you think. Just keep that in mind next time you hear a character screaming their lungs out in an anime dub that you watch. Probably the most notable difference between anime dubbing and western cartoons is that western cartoons are generally animated.

    03:51

    from pre-lay audio. So that basically means that the animation is animated to the voice, whereas obviously with anime dubbing, it's the other way around. So the actor has to match what's going on on screen. Whereas with Western cartoons, they will get the voice first and then they'll animate around that, which gives a lot more freedom when you're doing a pre-lay animation, which is what Western cartoons tend to do. So any kind of, you know, little quirky line delivery that you put in and the director likes it, you know, that will get animated too.

    04:20

    And there's all these things about how Robin Williams was like improvising, voicing the genie in Aladdin and this gave the animators a lot of fun, stuff to work with, with his impressions. Whereas anime dubbing, it's a lot more straightforward. You have to match what is going on on the screen and you can't really deviate from it. You can in some instances, like if it's a comedic scene, but generally you have to match exactly what the Japanese is doing. You can have some freedom, like I said, but yeah, it's quite a lot more straightforward.

    04:49

    The sad news with the anime dubbing industry is that it's very, very hard to break into. During the pandemic, I had the opportunity to do more anime strictly because most of the anime dubbing studios opened their doors to remote talent because they knew that, you know, they couldn't go in studio anyway. So they thought, oh, you know, heck, we'll just let everybody have a go. So because I was on the roster of a few of these studios beforehand.

    05:17

    and some people kindly recommended me, I got to audition for quite a few of them, which is why during the pandemic, like 2020 to 2021 primarily, and a little bit in 2022, I got to do some of these animes as much as I did. However, it is very difficult, unfortunately, to get into it. You either have to live in Texas, which is where Crunchyroll is, which is where the majority of anime is dubbed, or you have to live in LA.

    05:42

    and have a good agent who will send you these anime dubs, from places like Bang Zoom or Nyav or, you know. So sad news, it's very, very difficult to break into. And I don't really know how to kind of describe how to get into it. It's the same way that you would get any role from anything else, but a lot of people want to do anime. And what I would say is it's good to have that goal, but don't make that your focus because you're-

    06:11

    kind of setting yourself up for a difficult time because it's very, very difficult to break into unless you live in Texas or LA.

    06:21

    This kind of follows on from the previous answer, but yes, you either have to live in LA or Texas if you want the biggest shot of being able to do anime. And even then that doesn't guarantee you anything because obviously you have to be, you know, good at dubbing, you have to have a good voice, you have to be a good actor, you have to, you know, get have networking, you have to know people, you know, like all of this process is exactly the same for voice acting in general.

    06:48

    But because of how closed off the studios are now and they pretty much only want to record talent in studio, it's difficult to break into. That's not to say that you could go to either of these places and make a good impression and network and you could get your foot in the door, but it can take a long time. It's very rare that somebody just turns up and gets like a main role. They spend years doing walla or bit parts or just background voice stuff. It takes.

    07:16

    can take quite a long time to build up to the point where a studio would trust you with a bigger role. So yeah, unless you had a lot of work behind your belt and moved to either of these places, I would say yeah, you kind of have to be in LA or Texas to have the best chance of getting into it for sure.

    07:39

    I mean, like any casting director in any sector of voiceover, the most important thing to them is that you're a good actor. Anime is very, what's the word, categorical in its roles. So, you know, you'll have like the main character, you know, or the love interest, the mom or the big bully guy, you know. So if a director knows that you can comfortably either do one or many of these voices, you're definitely in for a better shot. So it's very important.

    08:08

    to either be excellent at one and make that your bread and butter or be versatile enough to where a director will think that there's a point in bringing you in for these sorts of roles. So yeah, the acting is obviously the main thing. Having dubbing experience is important because if they brought you in and you come in and you're like, I don't know what I'm doing, obviously that's gonna be a bit of a problem. Not that you can't learn on the job, but a lot of anime is also dubbed very quickly. They have to meet deadlines quite fast. So...

    08:37

    you know, a whole show they're looking to record in sort of like, you know, just over a month or maybe under a month. It's all done very quickly, which is another reason why they tend to go in studio. So it's, you know, they want people who are very capable to come in and do this stuff. And if you're just starting out or they don't think you're ready yet, you're probably not going to have much of a chance until you brush up your skills in those departments. So sorry if it sounds like I'm being just like...

    09:07

    You know, too real here, but that's kind of exactly what it's like. Like any casting director ever, the acting is the most important, but with anime dubbing in particular, it's the skills with dubbing, knowing what's going on, knowing the process, taking direction that will set you up for success in this particular realm of voiceover.

    09:30

    Thank you, Elsie, for sharing some amazing insights there. I definitely learned a lot more. So, we've had a little taster of what to expect. Let's now dive in a bit deeper and speak with another talented actor. Next, I'll be speaking with Keira Barkland, a voice actress based in Los Angeles. She's been dubbing anime for decades and has provided voices for hundreds of characters in various projects. Some of the most notable being Jolene Kujo in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.

    10:00

    Kuki Shinobu in Genshin Impact and Mitsuri Kanroji in Demon Slayer. I wanted to ask her journey, how to get seen by casting directors, the art of dubbing for anime and more.

    10:20

    Hi, so I'm Kira. I'm a voice actor based in the Los Angeles, California area. I've been voice acting for about 20 years total, but professionally for about 12 years. I have worked on primarily video games and dubbing. Some of my biggest game credits are Nier Automata, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Genshin Impact. I also do a lot of anime dubbing.

    10:46

    I am Jolene in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. I've also worked on shows like Demon Slayer, Kakegurui, Eden Zero, and so forth. Aside from all that, I do a lot of mentoring of newer voice actors. I help admin a community called the Voice Acting Club, which I also founded, and I write a lot of articles giving tips for actors on their journey, and I occasionally do a little bit of directing and casting, not too much, but I direct people on

    11:15

    self-made demo reels and things like that. So we're gonna touch up on the beginning. So you're from Alaska originally. Yes. What was the spark that got you into the anime world? And like, what was the first anime that you watched that made you think, okay, I want to go deeper into this? I mean, I think it would have been like clips from Sailor Moon when I was younger and just thinking that seemed really cool. But you know, at the time I didn't really think about

    11:44

    Oh, there's people that do the voices. Cause it's just, it's not something you think about when you're, when you're super young, but then in high school, when I was, um, you know, kind of able to be introduced to more anime. Cause I didn't have like cable TV growing up or anything like that. So I didn't have a lot of opportunities to watch that kind of stuff. But then in high school, people started showing me some different shows and said like, oh, we have an anime club that meets after school. So I started tagging along to that. And.

    12:13

    I knew I was kind of interested in vocal performance. I had thought for a while that I wanted to be a singer in like a rock band, but obviously that's not a super realistic career goal. But as a teenager, that's what I thought I wanted to do. And I was kind of interested in acting. Like I had, you know, tried out for plays and stuff that I never got. But I was kind of like, you know, I liked, I knew I liked singing, like doing stuff like vocally, and I liked performing and I liked acting, but I just didn't.

    12:43

    know if I would be so good doing like stage or camera stuff or whatever. So it was kind of like when I discovered voice acting, it was like, that was kind of a combination of the different things I liked about singing and like stage acting and different things that I'd tried out and thought that I might want to do. And especially cause I was getting into anime and games at the time, it just sort of made sense like, Oh yeah, this is the kind of career path I want to do. But obviously like where I

    13:11

    was living and this and that, I couldn't, you know, you can't just go and try out for an anime or whatever. So I, I did like, um, I was on like amateur voice acting web forums at the time that don't exist anymore. And, um, you know, just doing like, like a lot of hobby work. And I think that's something that we're missing a lot of these days on the internet, because people who are interested in doing that, they feel pressured that right away they have to jump into trying to make it their career. And it's like,

    13:39

    No, like have fun, explore this, you know, not everything, like of course it's important that when you, when you start treating it as a business, you know, you want to get paid fairly for your work and all that kind of stuff, which we cover, but it's like, not everything at first is going to be about like getting paid and you know, this and that it's, it's going to be about sort of trying things out, seeing if you like it, just doing things for fun, doing collabs with friends and

    14:05

    you know, that can kind of take the edge off like, oh, I have to find paid jobs right away. In your intro, you spoke about the Voice Acting Club, which I know you started. How do you think that helped you in terms of finding people that are like you and just developing your skills? Well, a lot of the role that I try to take in that community is sort of more of a mentorship role. So of course we have some other amazing actors that I've learned from and this and that, but a lot of...

    14:34

    What I try to do there is provide the resources that I wish that I had when I was first starting out. Now there's so much more accessible information on the internet, but before that it was kind of, nobody knew how to really get into this stuff. They just knew like, well, I think there's some people live in Texas that work for like ADV Films, dubbing anime, which that company doesn't even exist anymore. But it's like.

    14:59

    you know, now there's so much information and there's a lot of interviews with actors who work in the space regularly. Conventions are even more of a thing. And I don't know, I just, I feel like there's a lot more information out there. Although then the flip side is it can be overwhelming for people to kind of be like, well, where do I start? Which is why I kind of wrote a big article about like, here's some actionable steps you can take. And you know, everyone's sick of hearing the.

    15:23

    learn to act, but it's like, well, there's a reason that everyone who's working as an actor will tell you that's the most important part of being a voice actor. Do you remember your first role and how did you get it? Well, it's kind of, I guess it sort of depends because I did a few things like before I was able to move to LA and enter the industry professionally, I technically did a few jobs that I got paid for online, like some sort of like

    15:50

    indie game things that were technically published. So I don't know like how much that counts versus like first named role in an anime. My first named role in an anime was from a show called IKAR16. Not a lot of people have seen it. Definitely it's not, it's something that's aimed more at like adult audience and not something you want to watch with your kids or younger siblings. But you know, it's, that was my first like named character in an anime. So I was real excited about that. And I think

    16:20

    Like one of the first roles that I booked that was in like a something that a lot of people watched was I was in the show Blue Exorcist, which was pretty big in like, you know, 2012 as this character named Izumo. And that was pretty cool because it had a short TV run. So getting to, you know, I wasn't in every episode or anything, but just like being a named recurring character in a show that appeared on Toonami at the time and stuff was really cool.

    16:50

    Do you think having some kind of knowledge on anime allows you to do more dubbing or do you think it doesn't matter? I think it helps because, you know, as much as acting is acting and the skills kind of carry over between genres, knowing at least a little bit about specific genres you wanna work in help you kind of understand the styles that are going for. I mean, anime can be...

    17:17

    A lot of people say things because a lot of people have very strong feelings about English dubs, but people say like, oh, English dubbing takes no skill. But I actually find it's very much the opposite because you not only have to match a performance that was already created in a different language, but you have to match the exact timing of everything the character is doing on screen. So you have to engage both your technical brain and your creative brain.

    17:47

    just like with kind of any style of media that you want to work on to just look at some of the best examples in that genre and say like, okay, like, you know, what can I learn from this? You know, like some of the early anime dubs that I watched were like Cowboy Bebop, FLCL, Inuyasha. Like a lot of those shows were considered some of the best examples of English dubbing at the time. Like really just well done masterpieces with, you know, what they...

    18:15

    did, because anime dubs in the early 2000s were super hit or miss all over the place. But those, it's like, even people who hate dubs will look at something like Cowboy Bebop and be like, okay, that was a great dub, right? So I think it's by looking at good examples of things that you want to work on. Now one of my big goals is I want to work on AAA games. I'm so fortunate to do a lot of JRPGs, a lot of mobile games for many, many years, but now I'm like, I would love to be in like a...

    18:44

    a Western like cinematic game or something. So I don't tend to play a lot of that type of game specifically, but my roommate does. So I'll just like watch them play in the background. Sometimes, you know, cause like they play a lot of like fallout, for example, I'm like, Oh, I'd love to be in something like that someday. So I'll kind of like listen to the performances and something like that. The performance style is so different from something like an anime or a JRPG. So even though, you know, it's like, well,

    19:11

    acting skills, you know, and fundamentals, that's gonna carry you throughout the medium. You kind of have to know a bit about the style and the genre that you're auditioning for. I think it's so interesting in a way how some people can land certain jobs compared to others. And they seem so similar from the outside, but for some reason, they just don't. It's like, you know, even something as...

    19:38

    as simple as somebody that does commercial reads versus corporate reads or in your instance, it's AAA games versus anime. And it's like, in my mind, that's crazy to me that you, obviously you've done games before, but the games that you want to do, you're kind of like, well, I need to still learn and develop my skills. But in my head, I'm like, of course you should have done that, you know? It's really interesting. Yeah, and I think certain people are naturally

    20:06

    maybe their instincts or how they started off. Because a lot of my background when I was starting in voice acting was kind of influenced by things like anime and JRPGs. So I think that did kind of shape the acting styles that I learned early on. Whereas, you know, like someone like my roommate, for example, who's also a voice actor, grew up playing like Red Dead Redemption, Grand Theft Auto, like that kind of stuff. And so the kind of reads that they are inclined to do is the more cinematic stuff. But...

    20:32

    you know, thankfully we can kind of help each other. And, you know, I took a class recently where I kind of learned to hone in more on the cinematic reads. Cause that's the thing people don't always realize too, is that you never stop learning. Like even if you are a full-time working actor as I am, it's like, I still wanted to make sure to find the time to take a class with a director that I really wanted to work with and learn from. Cause I was like, okay, I know that she's going to be able to give me notes that will kind of help me figure out

    21:02

    where I'm at and where my weakness is and how to work on that. Talking about styles, what would you say is the difference between dubbing and anime versus a Western animation? I mean, the biggest thing hands down is just that when you're dubbing, whether it's an anime or a live action dub, which I've done a fair amount of those as well, or even just like a foreign cartoon dub like Miraculous Ladybug, which is done in French first, for example.

    21:31

    you're matching what's already there. So you cannot have the freedom to play with things like timing or ad lib or anything like that because you are restricted to what's already on the screen. Now, how close they want you to stick to the original language performance kind of depends on the clients and the director. Some of them will say, we wanna keep it very close. Others will say, well, feel free to play with something as long as it doesn't stray too far from the creator's original intent. So I would say you

    22:02

    have a lot less freedom when dubbing. But one thing that's really nice about it is that you see exactly what's going on in the scene. So you're seeing all the action, you're seeing all the beats that you have to hit. Whereas when I've auditioned for, like I'd love to do more original cartoons, I haven't done very many, but sometimes when I'm auditioning for them, cause I'm a very visual person, so I find it challenging that a lot of times I'm not even given a picture of the character for the audition. So I'm like, I don't know.

    22:31

    what to do with this. So I just kind of have to look over the script and be like, okay, I need to make a choice here. But it's, I don't know, for someone who's visually oriented it's just so difficult. Cause it's like, well, I don't even know where I want to place the voice. Cause for example, if it says the character 17, well, do you want like cartoon 17 or realistic 17, for example. So it's, you know, you just kind of have to, and sometimes, or a lot of times you don't know what the project is. Like everything's very secretive. So.

    23:01

    I'm like, well, what is this like an adult animation? Is it a kid's, you know, and you just have to read the little excerpt of the script that they give you and try to get as much as you can from the context and the lines and be like, okay, I think it's this. And then you just have to make a choice and go for it. So yes, you do have more freedom, but sometimes it can be overwhelming if you're not given kind of those guidelines to stay in. Now I assume that when people go in for the actual job, then there's a lot more specific, I mean,

    23:30

    One of the very few original cartoons I did was Rainbow High, which is a kids show on YouTube. And, you know, we did kind of have specific guidance and, and parameters for like, Hey, here's your audition. We liked this. Um, this is who the character is. Here's all the info. Here's what she looks like and kind of what her role is going to be in the main story. So once you actually like get into the job, I feel like then it's a lot easier, but auditioning, man, you're just throwing stuff in the wind a lot. Yeah.

    23:59

    So a lot of my friends in the UK especially, who want to do the work that you're doing, they seem to think they only exist in California. What are your thoughts on that? And do you think that's true? A lot of it is, unfortunately. It's a shame because it does kind of feel like we went backwards a bit because for a couple years during the COVID pandemic, it was like, because a lot of studios had to close.

    24:29

    than we were doing so much work from home. And granted that did come with its own set of problems. I have friends who do mixing and audio engineering and they said like, oh, we hate dealing with home recordings because everyone's in a different space and we have to in mix try to make it sound like everyone's in the same room. And it's just, it's a mess. So I totally get it. It causes extra time and money in post-production, but I would like to see at least more like global cast centered in different.

    24:58

    markets, like even if it meant, okay, we have one studio that records in LA and one in Dallas and one in London, you know, I think that would be really cool because then you could see not like, oh, this is the LA cast we always see, or this is the Texas cast we always see, or whatever. Like, I just want to see more crossover. And for the couple years that they allowed home recording, it just made such a difference. And you see it in like indie games, because a lot of times indie projects can't afford to rent a studio.

    25:27

    They'll have everyone record from home and you'll have like a big wild card. Like I got to cast for a couple indie games before and just like the, it was so cool just seeing like, you know, the end clients picked the final cast, but I would send them selects and we would just have people from all over and it was really nice. I do know that there is some voice recording work in the UK, particularly in London. My friend, Elsie Lovelock does a lot of

    25:56

    voice acting from over there. I think she did a part in Baldur's Gate 3. And so there definitely is some work there, especially for gaming to my understanding, but you know, obviously LA is where a lot of the work is done. So kind of what I tell people is do what you can in your current market, whether that's, you know, if you are in a place where there is some work to try to get involved with a local agency or something like that once you're ready.

    26:24

    or to do stuff, work for independent clients online that do allow home recordings. Cause there even is a lot of stuff like narration, e-learning, audio books that is usually done from home. It's for like games and dubbing that they're very much like, you have to come in. So there's a lot of stuff. Like I know people who just live all over the world and they do that kind of stuff. But yeah, it is harder for games and especially anime. But

    26:53

    then you know, it's like when people are ready, if it's kind of like, well, my career to progress further from here dictates I be in LA, sometimes that's what people do. In terms of getting noticed, obviously what you do is acting ultimately. And that's where the fundamentals are gonna come from. But somebody that's listening to this now that is thinking, okay, this is something I wanna pursue. How do you, what would you advise to that person aside from acting?

    27:22

    What would you advise them to do to get noticed, whether that's demos or getting more, you know, jumping on forums and such, what kind of advice could you give? Yeah, I would say definitely audition for stuff in like the indie and online scene, get involved in that sort of thing. A lot of the actors who are working in my side of the market, like JRPGs for example, so many of them did like indie games and things like that because that's...

    27:50

    a big part of what was accessible to them early on in their career. So I think, you know, one thing that I see a lot on the voice acting club is a lot of people saying like, well, I don't have any training or experience, but how do I get in with a studio or agency? And, you know, maybe like 20 years ago you hear about, oh, they just needed someone who was around the office or whatever. But these days it's so competitive and difficult to get into stuff. So

    28:18

    I think, you know, obviously, of course, being the best actor you can be, because if you're good at what you do and you go and you work with a couple places and those directors might say like, hey, I have something else I want you to read for or refer you to another studio or whatever. But in terms of getting on those rosters in the first place, you know, just trying to do some good work in what you're able to do so that your name gets out there.

    28:45

    When you're ready, you want to get a demo produced. Obviously, I have some articles about that. People do not need to go and spend thousands of dollars on a demo before they're ready. That's, it's just not a good investment if it's something you're gonna outgrow or you're not at the level where you will be able to submit to places that would require such a demo. So, you know, it's, I have an article on that too, but basically like making smart, the business does take financial investment, but kind of knowing like, okay,

    29:15

    First, I should invest in training. Then I should try to get like a sort of decent home setup and then, you know, demos eventually when the time comes. If you're just auditioning for stuff online, like you can make your own or have a friend make one for you. And then you can get that fancy industry demo when you're like, okay, I'm ready to submit to studio rosters and stuff like that. And that is not always an easy process because a lot of studios don't have open rosters and it can be kind of hard. Like you have to maybe

    29:45

    like either send a cold email and ask, or sometimes people will take like a workshop with them or hope that a client will refer them, like client or director referrals are a big thing. It's, if there was an easy way, like you do this and it's guaranteed to work, then I guess everybody would be doing this, right? But... Exactly, yeah. It's one of those questions that I hate to ask, but I ask it anyway. It's like, obviously, like you said, there's no...

    30:14

    you know, silver bullet kind of thing. But, you know, just that little spark that might go off in someone's head by someone, something that you said. So I always ask anyway, but I know what the answer is gonna be. Yeah, but I mean, I hope that that helps a little. I know, so kind of oddly enough, how I answer the question about submissions ends up being more like what not to focus on. Not to do, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because people do focus on like spending a lot of money in fancy demos early on. And

    30:42

    The other thing that I see people focus on, or place too much emphasis on, is social media marketing. And they think, oh, if I just get a lot of followers, and if I do this and that and market myself on Twitter, that it's somehow going to. And like, of course it helps to have a presence. So much of the industry is based on like human connections and out of sight, out of mind, sometimes with casting directors. But I see there's a lot of drama and negativity on Twitter.

    31:10

    and I see people get so caught up in that that it kind of ends up almost being to their detriment, like, okay, you're spending so much time.

    31:19

    getting invested in arguing with people on social media, like that ultimately doesn't matter when you could be putting that energy into your craft. So, sure, it helps to have an online presence, but unless you're a huge influencer, like we're talking like millions of followers, that alone is not gonna get you hired, you know? It's like, it's better to be a good actor, and you know, that kind of stuff is all just secondary.

    31:45

    But yeah, Kira, thank you for joining me today. I hope I didn't take too much of your time. You know, good luck on your journey. I'm sure a lot of people are gonna check out your stuff. So I'm definitely gonna put all of your links down below as well in the notes, your articles, everything that you do with your voice acting club so people can reach out as well. And yeah, thank you again. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks so much for having me.

    32:16

    So what did I take away from today's conversations? The anime dubbing world is unfortunately based in Texas and LA and is very much studio based. But that doesn't mean there are no other studios in other places of the globe that you can reach out to. That's good to know. Don't make anime your be all and end all. It's a very, very, very small niche that to be honest is very guarded.

    32:42

    If it's your passion then by all means go for it but don't put all your eggs in one basket. Just focus on being the best version of you and keep developing your craft. The rest will fall into place. There are lots of groups online so use them, be active, audition for fan fictions and indie JRPG games. This leads on to my next point of the more you do the more you will be comfortable dubbing and know what's expected of you.

    33:11

    Doubling experience is key as DJs run a very tight budget and very tight deadline. They expect you to know what you are doing and they're not trying to teach you so when you step in the booth, it's go time.

    33:26

    Thank you LC and Kira for answering all of my questions and taking time out to be part of this episode. Make sure you check out their work in the notes below as well as some of the groups discussed in today's episode. Good luck everyone. It's that time again. Another adventure done. And another series completed. Can't believe it's been three seasons already. Been a wild ride.

    33:52

    Thank you to all of the guests that have taken time out to speak with me this season. I've not only learnt a lot, but I've made some amazing friends along the way and I'm looking forward to what's around the corner in Series 4. Make sure you follow the Instagram and LinkedIn pages to get updates on upcoming content and giveaways in the next couple months. And if you have missed an episode, now's the time to catch up. I'm going to be on a short break and will be back very soon.

    34:22

    I just want to say thank you again and good luck on all of your adventures Until next time everyone, bye bye

SEASON 1